The Not-So-Fine Print:
Duty, Obligation, and the Military Enlistment Contract

Military — By on December 14, 2004 at 2:17 pm

In his recent Tech Central Station column, former Army officer and Desert Storm vet James Joyner implies that military members are somehow being misled about their contractual agreements:

The dirty little secret of military recruiters is that, regardless of the length of the initial active duty contract, everyone who joins the military incurs an eight-year obligation under Section 10145 of 10 USC. This fact is buried in the long enlistment contract and certainly not emphasized by recruiters, who are under heavy pressure to meet monthly quotas.

Except for the part about recruiters being under heavy pressure, Joyner couldn ‘



  • Mr. Moderate

    Could someone explain how someone so far removed from military service can be called up involuntarily again:
    http://tinyurl.com/6w6yh
    After a certain period of time in the military does the government have the right to recall you at their whim? This guy apparently doesn’t mind going, but what of the hundreds of thousands of other vets who may be put into the same situation just so that the Republicans don’t have to reinstate the draft?

  • Mr. Moderate

    Could someone explain how someone so far removed from military service can be called up involuntarily again:
    http://tinyurl.com/6w6yh
    After a certain period of time in the military does the government have the right to recall you at their whim? This guy apparently doesn’t mind going, but what of the hundreds of thousands of other vets who may be put into the same situation just so that the Republicans don’t have to reinstate the draft?

  • http://www.gryphmon.com/ Patrick

    I don’t have a problem with military recruiting, and they should be allowed into all college campuses. However, the advertising simply needs to be a little more truthful. Printing “No Faggots Allowed” in large red letters at the bottom of their ads ought to do the trick.

  • http://www.gryphmon.com Patrick

    I don’t have a problem with military recruiting, and they should be allowed into all college campuses. However, the advertising simply needs to be a little more truthful. Printing “No Faggots Allowed” in large red letters at the bottom of their ads ought to do the trick.

  • Mr. Moderate

    “No Faggots Allowed” in large red letters at the bottom of their ads ought to do the trick.
    When they get desperate enough they don’t care if you run into the recruiter’s office in a pink tuto making out with your drag queen lover holding a photo album of you in your last all-male bath house orgy encounter. You’re going to war. There was a really good book on the subject written when the hole “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” thing hit the scene back in the early 1990′s. They’ll gladly take fags for cannon fodder when they *really* need it. Hell…they’re “asking” 70 year old veterans to join back up!

  • Mr. Moderate

    “No Faggots Allowed” in large red letters at the bottom of their ads ought to do the trick.
    When they get desperate enough they don’t care if you run into the recruiter’s office in a pink tuto making out with your drag queen lover holding a photo album of you in your last all-male bath house orgy encounter. You’re going to war. There was a really good book on the subject written when the hole “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” thing hit the scene back in the early 1990′s. They’ll gladly take fags for cannon fodder when they *really* need it. Hell…they’re “asking” 70 year old veterans to join back up!

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ Joe Carter

    Moderate: After a certain period of time in the military does the government have the right to recall you at their whim? This guy apparently doesn’t mind going, but what of the hundreds of thousands of other vets who may be put into the same situation just so that the Republicans don’t have to reinstate the draft?
    These

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com Joe Carter

    Moderate: After a certain period of time in the military does the government have the right to recall you at their whim? This guy apparently doesn’t mind going, but what of the hundreds of thousands of other vets who may be put into the same situation just so that the Republicans don’t have to reinstate the draft?
    These

  • http://mumonno.blogspot.com/ mumon

    aving served three years as a recruiter for the Marine Corps I can assure you that the point doesn

  • http://mumonno.blogspot.com mumon

    aving served three years as a recruiter for the Marine Corps I can assure you that the point doesn

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Yeah I hear recruiting is going great Joe. Almost hitting a full 60 % or so of targeted expectation right?

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Yeah I hear recruiting is going great Joe. Almost hitting a full 60 % or so of targeted expectation right?

  • Mr. Moderate

    Yeah I hear recruiting is going great Joe. Almost hitting a full 60 % or so of targeted expectation right?
    [sarcasm]I hear its great too! They are just trying to get these really old geezers off their duffs and make them productive members of society again. These other younger people who are being involutarily recalled or having their stays extended were really just going to be sitting around doing nothing as well so the military thought they would keep them busy doing some minor work in the soon to be more peaceful than Disney World Iraq. Any day now they should finish flushing out those last remaining pro-Saddam loyalists and then they’ll start throwing roses at us! I can’t wait![/sarcasm]
    No draft coming? Please…

  • Mr. Moderate

    Yeah I hear recruiting is going great Joe. Almost hitting a full 60 % or so of targeted expectation right?
    [sarcasm]I hear its great too! They are just trying to get these really old geezers off their duffs and make them productive members of society again. These other younger people who are being involutarily recalled or having their stays extended were really just going to be sitting around doing nothing as well so the military thought they would keep them busy doing some minor work in the soon to be more peaceful than Disney World Iraq. Any day now they should finish flushing out those last remaining pro-Saddam loyalists and then they’ll start throwing roses at us! I can’t wait![/sarcasm]
    No draft coming? Please…

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Mod the story that was out on some news prgrams was that if you tender your resignation wrong somehow you’re subject to some kind of recall. I don’t really udnerstand all the particulars.
    Allegedly what’s happened in a very few cases is that folks who did file all their paperwork correctly were recalled anyway. And if I understand their allegation correctly they were turned down on appeal even though they claim to have done evrything they were supposed to do. They allege that it’s not an ‘accident’ that these mistakes are made. If they’re correct, my wife could be subject to such an abuse, which will make me a rather nasty fellow towards anyone who still supports this stunning DoD and WH failure.
    “>i>You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and still get blown up” Don Rumsfeld

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Mod the story that was out on some news prgrams was that if you tender your resignation wrong somehow you’re subject to some kind of recall. I don’t really udnerstand all the particulars.
    Allegedly what’s happened in a very few cases is that folks who did file all their paperwork correctly were recalled anyway. And if I understand their allegation correctly they were turned down on appeal even though they claim to have done evrything they were supposed to do. They allege that it’s not an ‘accident’ that these mistakes are made. If they’re correct, my wife could be subject to such an abuse, which will make me a rather nasty fellow towards anyone who still supports this stunning DoD and WH failure.
    “>i>You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and still get blown up” Don Rumsfeld

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ Joe Carter

    DS:Yeah I hear recruiting is going great Joe. Almost hitting a full 60 % or so of targeted expectation right?
    Um, no. For FY 2004, every service (excluding the National Guard) exceeded their targeted recruiting goals. Wars don

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com Joe Carter

    DS:Yeah I hear recruiting is going great Joe. Almost hitting a full 60 % or so of targeted expectation right?
    Um, no. For FY 2004, every service (excluding the National Guard) exceeded their targeted recruiting goals. Wars don

  • Mr. Moderate

    . If they’re correct, my wife could be subject to such an abuse, which will make me a rather nasty fellow towards anyone who still supports this stunning DoD and WH failure.
    Sorry to hear that. Hopefully this country will wake up from their collective coma and start noticing this group’s shennanigans and get them to actually start taking accountability for their actions.
    “>i>You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and still get blown up” Don Rumsfeld
    Did anyone see Jay Leno where he pointed out after the speech Rumsfeld got into an armored car. Hypocrite!

  • Mr. Moderate

    . If they’re correct, my wife could be subject to such an abuse, which will make me a rather nasty fellow towards anyone who still supports this stunning DoD and WH failure.
    Sorry to hear that. Hopefully this country will wake up from their collective coma and start noticing this group’s shennanigans and get them to actually start taking accountability for their actions.
    “>i>You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and still get blown up” Don Rumsfeld
    Did anyone see Jay Leno where he pointed out after the speech Rumsfeld got into an armored car. Hypocrite!

  • Mr. Moderate

    As I

  • Mr. Moderate

    As I

  • http://pseudopolymath.blogspot.com/ Mark O

    Joe,
    Don’t confuse us with pesky facts. :)

  • http://pseudopolymath.blogspot.com/ Mark O

    Joe,
    Don’t confuse us with pesky facts. :)

  • Mr. Moderate

    Um, no. For FY 2004, every service (excluding the National Guard) exceeded their targeted recruiting goals. Wars don

  • Mr. Moderate

    Um, no. For FY 2004, every service (excluding the National Guard) exceeded their targeted recruiting goals. Wars don

  • Mr. Moderate

    http://tinyurl.com/4n3am
    Once again…nothing to see here…everything is fine…just nod “yes” to everything your neocon “leaders” tell you.

  • Mr. Moderate

    http://tinyurl.com/4n3am
    Once again…nothing to see here…everything is fine…just nod “yes” to everything your neocon “leaders” tell you.

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ Joe Carter

    Moderate,
    Once again…nothing to see here…everything is fine…just nod “yes” to everything your neocon “leaders” tell you.
    Yeah, we got it. You oppose the war, you hate Bush, blah, blah, blah. We caught on to that about four months ago. So why clog up this thread with more of the same? When you have something on point (as you did in your first comment) it’s appreciated. But when go off on another one of your tangents it simply makes for more boring material that people have to wade through.

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com Joe Carter

    Moderate,
    Once again…nothing to see here…everything is fine…just nod “yes” to everything your neocon “leaders” tell you.
    Yeah, we got it. You oppose the war, you hate Bush, blah, blah, blah. We caught on to that about four months ago. So why clog up this thread with more of the same? When you have something on point (as you did in your first comment) it’s appreciated. But when go off on another one of your tangents it simply makes for more boring material that people have to wade through.

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Joe I like you. I respect you. I think you’re a good guy and you at least listen to critics which is more than I can say for many in your demographic. You have probably done more to disarm my greatest fears about the religous right than any other person I deal with online.
    So I hope you listen now and understand that after statements implying “Iraq is an immediate threat” and “Mushroom cloud” and “Iraq was trying to procure yellowcake from Niger” and “Iraq has links to Al Qaeda” and “We’re treating Iraqi detainees properely” and “Iraqi Oil will PAY for the invasion” and “Things are going remarkably well” and “Our soldiers have everything they need” and “The HDX was taken by Saddam/Russians/Blown-up [insert next in series of lies] before insurgents could get it”; I don’t trust the WH or the DoD anymore at all.
    I trust them less than Clinton, way way way less. And I really thought Slick Willy was about the biggest liar I would ever see in the WH. Right now I’d take a fib about a tawdry hummer from an intern in the Oval Office over the incompetence and dishonesty of this crew in a New York minute.
    Recruiting on numbers, I don’t know much about it and I accept that you would know more. So if you have some comprehensive data you trust that you’re allowed to share, and that you’re willing to personally vouch for (I won’t hold it against you if the data was cooked without your knowledge) and shows the whole picture, I’d be willing listen with an open mind on that aspect. I don’t even need to see the source. Just your personal word that to the best of your knowldge it’s accurate and comprehensive is good enough for me. It also might be worth a post because some articles have been out lately showing alleged leaks of recruiting numbers and they don’t look great. They’re not horrible but they’re not great either.

  • http://outsidethebeltway.com/ James Joyner

    Joe,
    I realized that military.com was a “civilian” site (although I didn’t realize it was run by Monster). I presume that it’s paid for out of the military’s recruiting budget. Several government agencies use .com addresses for their recruiting. See fbijobs.com, for example. Everything on the site reflects the military recruiting pitch, though.
    If one goes to the various military websites (goarmy.mil, for example) you’ll see much of the same sort of half truths about the nature of the service. Even at this moment, the emphasis is on perks, not duty.
    I don’t dispute that the eight year commitment is included in the contract’s language. But, rather clearly, most soldiers don’t understand it. The furor over stop-loss and IRR call-ups makes that pretty clear.

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Joe I like you. I respect you. I think you’re a good guy and you at least listen to critics which is more than I can say for many in your demographic. You have probably done more to disarm my greatest fears about the religous right than any other person I deal with online.
    So I hope you listen now and understand that after statements implying “Iraq is an immediate threat” and “Mushroom cloud” and “Iraq was trying to procure yellowcake from Niger” and “Iraq has links to Al Qaeda” and “We’re treating Iraqi detainees properely” and “Iraqi Oil will PAY for the invasion” and “Things are going remarkably well” and “Our soldiers have everything they need” and “The HDX was taken by Saddam/Russians/Blown-up [insert next in series of lies] before insurgents could get it”; I don’t trust the WH or the DoD anymore at all.
    I trust them less than Clinton, way way way less. And I really thought Slick Willy was about the biggest liar I would ever see in the WH. Right now I’d take a fib about a tawdry hummer from an intern in the Oval Office over the incompetence and dishonesty of this crew in a New York minute.
    Recruiting on numbers, I don’t know much about it and I accept that you would know more. So if you have some comprehensive data you trust that you’re allowed to share, and that you’re willing to personally vouch for (I won’t hold it against you if the data was cooked without your knowledge) and shows the whole picture, I’d be willing listen with an open mind on that aspect. I don’t even need to see the source. Just your personal word that to the best of your knowldge it’s accurate and comprehensive is good enough for me. It also might be worth a post because some articles have been out lately showing alleged leaks of recruiting numbers and they don’t look great. They’re not horrible but they’re not great either.

  • http://outsidethebeltway.com James Joyner

    Joe,
    I realized that military.com was a “civilian” site (although I didn’t realize it was run by Monster). I presume that it’s paid for out of the military’s recruiting budget. Several government agencies use .com addresses for their recruiting. See fbijobs.com, for example. Everything on the site reflects the military recruiting pitch, though.
    If one goes to the various military websites (goarmy.mil, for example) you’ll see much of the same sort of half truths about the nature of the service. Even at this moment, the emphasis is on perks, not duty.
    I don’t dispute that the eight year commitment is included in the contract’s language. But, rather clearly, most soldiers don’t understand it. The furor over stop-loss and IRR call-ups makes that pretty clear.

  • Mr. Moderate

    So why clog up this thread with more of the same? When you have something on point (as you did in your first comment) it’s appreciated. But when go off on another one of your tangents it simply makes for more boring material that people have to wade through.
    To make sure that people on the right at least are aware of what their “great” leaders are doing. Did you read the article linked? I guess Lt. Gen. James R. “Ron” Helmly, the top general in the reserves and heavily quoted in the article, is one of those “blind democrats.”
    You are trying to do a snow job on the recruiting issue. I’m trying to make sure those facts that are inconvenient to your ideological position are also put out there for your readers to see.

  • Mr. Moderate

    So why clog up this thread with more of the same? When you have something on point (as you did in your first comment) it’s appreciated. But when go off on another one of your tangents it simply makes for more boring material that people have to wade through.
    To make sure that people on the right at least are aware of what their “great” leaders are doing. Did you read the article linked? I guess Lt. Gen. James R. “Ron” Helmly, the top general in the reserves and heavily quoted in the article, is one of those “blind democrats.”
    You are trying to do a snow job on the recruiting issue. I’m trying to make sure those facts that are inconvenient to your ideological position are also put out there for your readers to see.

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ Joe Carter

    DS: I don’t trust the WH or the DoD anymore at all.
    Well, you certainly have that right. Fortunately, most of the people who most need to trust the WH and the DoD with their lives (i.e., the military) have a great deal of trust in both organizations.
    Recruiting on numbers, I don’t know much about it and I accept that you would know more. So if you have some comprehensive data you trust that you’re allowed to share, and that you’re willing to personally vouch for (I won’t hold it against you if the data was cooked without your knowledge) and shows the whole picture, I’d be willing listen with an open mind on that aspect.
    There

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com Joe Carter

    DS: I don’t trust the WH or the DoD anymore at all.
    Well, you certainly have that right. Fortunately, most of the people who most need to trust the WH and the DoD with their lives (i.e., the military) have a great deal of trust in both organizations.
    Recruiting on numbers, I don’t know much about it and I accept that you would know more. So if you have some comprehensive data you trust that you’re allowed to share, and that you’re willing to personally vouch for (I won’t hold it against you if the data was cooked without your knowledge) and shows the whole picture, I’d be willing listen with an open mind on that aspect.
    There

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Joe The reaosn I asked is Hackworth and others are reporting that numbers for 2005, which I take it started already, are well below projections. Do they take into accont the lean months you mentioned or do they just amortize the entire year straight out?

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Joe The reaosn I asked is Hackworth and others are reporting that numbers for 2005, which I take it started already, are well below projections. Do they take into accont the lean months you mentioned or do they just amortize the entire year straight out?

  • Mr. Moderate

    If that

  • Mr. Moderate

    If that

  • Mr. Moderate

    Hank:To make sure that people on the right at least are aware of what their “great” leaders are doing.
    Joe:We know. After all, we watch FOX News. ; )
    Well it was Jerry Falwell on Crossfire who said that the war in Iraq is going pretty well if you watch Fox News:
    http://mediamatters.org/static/video/cross-200412020011.mov

  • Mr. Moderate

    Hank:To make sure that people on the right at least are aware of what their “great” leaders are doing.
    Joe:We know. After all, we watch FOX News. ; )
    Well it was Jerry Falwell on Crossfire who said that the war in Iraq is going pretty well if you watch Fox News:
    http://mediamatters.org/static/video/cross-200412020011.mov

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ Joe Carter

    DS:Joe The reaosn I asked is Hackworth and others are reporting that numbers for 2005, which I take it started already, are well below projections. Do they take into accont the lean months you mentioned or do they just amortize the entire year straight out?
    In recruiting you have two separate quotas that must be met. The first is the recruiting quota

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com Joe Carter

    DS:Joe The reaosn I asked is Hackworth and others are reporting that numbers for 2005, which I take it started already, are well below projections. Do they take into accont the lean months you mentioned or do they just amortize the entire year straight out?
    In recruiting you have two separate quotas that must be met. The first is the recruiting quota

  • http://www.gryphmon.com/ Patrick

    Joe says:
    “Actually, printing

  • http://www.gryphmon.com Patrick

    Joe says:
    “Actually, printing

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Joe
    The real question that should be asked is why we the Air Force is still the same size as it was in the Cold War. The AF has as many people as the Navy but doesn

  • http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionvCreation/welcome1.msnw ~DS~

    Joe
    The real question that should be asked is why we the Air Force is still the same size as it was in the Cold War. The AF has as many people as the Navy but doesn

  • Chris Lutz

    What is the rationale for keeping them there? Is there a threat I’m missing or a long standing agreement or what exactly?
    Simply put we’re protecting the Europeans so they can spend their money on their bloated welfare systems.
    From a strategic point though, it gives us some bases for forward deployment. However, based on the current conflict, their position is less important than it used to be and Bush announced a few months ago that we would begin drawing down forces.
    “A tourist in France noticed a large number of blonde-haired blue-eyed children and adults. Asking a local if they were of Nordic descent, the local replied in the negative and pointed out the old German barracks from WWII.”
    Couldn’t resist telling that one.

  • Chris Lutz

    What is the rationale for keeping them there? Is there a threat I’m missing or a long standing agreement or what exactly?
    Simply put we’re protecting the Europeans so they can spend their money on their bloated welfare systems.
    From a strategic point though, it gives us some bases for forward deployment. However, based on the current conflict, their position is less important than it used to be and Bush announced a few months ago that we would begin drawing down forces.
    “A tourist in France noticed a large number of blonde-haired blue-eyed children and adults. Asking a local if they were of Nordic descent, the local replied in the negative and pointed out the old German barracks from WWII.”
    Couldn’t resist telling that one.

  • David Marcoe

    The problem with Hackworth is that he gets as much wrong as he does right, and he has only gotten more hateful and whiney in the last few years. Does he have “street cred”? Used to have a lot, by virtue of his service in Vietnam (and he was a good officer), but he suqandered most of it when he cut and ran, and then slid his way back in to the the States (one of the guys who pulled strings for him now regrets that he did it). The war effected him like it did a lot of other veterans, but on top of everything he has an ax to grind. I take anything he says with a large grain of salt.
    DS: Joe The reaosn I asked is Hackworth and others are reporting that numbers for 2005, which I take it started already, are well below projections. Do they take into accont the lean months you mentioned or do they just amortize the entire year straight out?

  • David Marcoe

    The problem with Hackworth is that he gets as much wrong as he does right, and he has only gotten more hateful and whiney in the last few years. Does he have “street cred”? Used to have a lot, by virtue of his service in Vietnam (and he was a good officer), but he suqandered most of it when he cut and ran, and then slid his way back in to the the States (one of the guys who pulled strings for him now regrets that he did it). The war effected him like it did a lot of other veterans, but on top of everything he has an ax to grind. I take anything he says with a large grain of salt.
    DS: Joe The reaosn I asked is Hackworth and others are reporting that numbers for 2005, which I take it started already, are well below projections. Do they take into accont the lean months you mentioned or do they just amortize the entire year straight out?

  • Paul5388

    Joe,
    I have to admit, I didn’t look at the papers either time I joined. I was only 17 at the first enlistment and that might make a decent excuse, but I was almost 40 at the time of the second enlistment and still didn’t read the papers I signed. I suppose it should be noted, they don’t draft 17 year olds and by the time I was 40 I had been carrying a 5-A draft card (that’s a lower status than the sick, lame and crazy) for 14 years.
    One of the major differences between today and the “old days” is the influence the John Kerry type “heros” have had on the general populace. Through the assistance of the MSM, the lies told about “war crimes” and etc. have undermined the will of the population to fight a war to its completion.
    Greyhawk, at Mudville Gazette, has a lot of old recruiting posters on his site. SGT Alvin York was presented as an inspirational figure during the height of WWII, even though he was a hero of WWI. Do we see anything that would compare today? Certainly not from the MSM and the sheeple they have generated.
    The movie industry was behind the efforts during WWII, but now you have Jane Fonda and others who do their best to aid and assist the enemies of the USA.
    There are too many who have their heads in the sand and refuse to admit the need for the ongoing war. Was Saddam involved with 9-11? Well this site seems to indicate he took great pleasure in those events http://knighthawk.smugmug.com/photos/9488760-M.jpg
    What! You didn’t see that picture on the MSM? I wonder why?

  • Paul5388

    Joe,
    I have to admit, I didn’t look at the papers either time I joined. I was only 17 at the first enlistment and that might make a decent excuse, but I was almost 40 at the time of the second enlistment and still didn’t read the papers I signed. I suppose it should be noted, they don’t draft 17 year olds and by the time I was 40 I had been carrying a 5-A draft card (that’s a lower status than the sick, lame and crazy) for 14 years.
    One of the major differences between today and the “old days” is the influence the John Kerry type “heros” have had on the general populace. Through the assistance of the MSM, the lies told about “war crimes” and etc. have undermined the will of the population to fight a war to its completion.
    Greyhawk, at Mudville Gazette, has a lot of old recruiting posters on his site. SGT Alvin York was presented as an inspirational figure during the height of WWII, even though he was a hero of WWI. Do we see anything that would compare today? Certainly not from the MSM and the sheeple they have generated.
    The movie industry was behind the efforts during WWII, but now you have Jane Fonda and others who do their best to aid and assist the enemies of the USA.
    There are too many who have their heads in the sand and refuse to admit the need for the ongoing war. Was Saddam involved with 9-11? Well this site seems to indicate he took great pleasure in those events http://knighthawk.smugmug.com/photos/9488760-M.jpg
    What! You didn’t see that picture on the MSM? I wonder why?

  • David Marcoe

    That isn’t the half of it. I used to have pictures up on a old blog of mine of a terrorist training camp in Iraq, taken by some Marines that rolled through. And for those who want confirmation. Otherwise, to those who want to, go ahead an accuse me of making it up. I think I would have a fairly sound reputation around here by now.

  • David Marcoe

    That isn’t the half of it. I used to have pictures up on a old blog of mine of a terrorist training camp in Iraq, taken by some Marines that rolled through. And for those who want confirmation. Otherwise, to those who want to, go ahead an accuse me of making it up. I think I would have a fairly sound reputation around here by now.

  • http://www.leanleft.com/ Kevin T. Keith

    When these vets agree to take retirement they know that they can be called back to duty until age 60 (and 64 for general officers).
    How does that work?
    Do you mean that if you put in 20 years and retire, you can still be called back at any time? Or is this part of some special early retirement program or something?
    It seems odd that you can do a regular enlistment and your obligation expires after 8 years, but if you put in much more service you’re then on the hook for life.

  • http://www.leanleft.com Kevin T. Keith

    When these vets agree to take retirement they know that they can be called back to duty until age 60 (and 64 for general officers).
    How does that work?
    Do you mean that if you put in 20 years and retire, you can still be called back at any time? Or is this part of some special early retirement program or something?
    It seems odd that you can do a regular enlistment and your obligation expires after 8 years, but if you put in much more service you’re then on the hook for life.

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ Joe Carter

    Kevin,
    Do you mean that if you put in 20 years and retire, you can still be called back at any time? Or is this part of some special early retirement program or something?
    Yes, but not exactly on a whim. There must be a national emergency for a general call-up or a shortage in a particular job specialty before they will bother. About the only people that this ever affects are highly skilled retirees (i.e., doctors, linguists) in fields that are difficult to replace.
    It seems odd that you can do a regular enlistment and your obligation expires after 8 years, but if you put in much more service you’re then on the hook for life.
    Well, that

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com Joe Carter

    Kevin,
    Do you mean that if you put in 20 years and retire, you can still be called back at any time? Or is this part of some special early retirement program or something?
    Yes, but not exactly on a whim. There must be a national emergency for a general call-up or a shortage in a particular job specialty before they will bother. About the only people that this ever affects are highly skilled retirees (i.e., doctors, linguists) in fields that are difficult to replace.
    It seems odd that you can do a regular enlistment and your obligation expires after 8 years, but if you put in much more service you’re then on the hook for life.
    Well, that

  • http://www.leanleft.com/ Kevin T. Keith

    that

  • http://www.leanleft.com Kevin T. Keith

    that

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ Joe Carter

    Kevin,
    But that’s not the way pensions typically work. If you retire from GM after 20 years, they can’t just call you up one day and force you back on the assembly line on penalty of losing your retirement benefits.
    I certainly won

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com Joe Carter

    Kevin,
    But that’s not the way pensions typically work. If you retire from GM after 20 years, they can’t just call you up one day and force you back on the assembly line on penalty of losing your retirement benefits.
    I certainly won

  • P. Hayes

    “Well, the military does have a large group that receives pay for doing noting. We call them officers. ; )”
    Even with the smiley, I find that remark offensive (and uncharitable). Especially so, since it includes all commissioned officers, warrant officers, and non-commissioned officers. Let’s see, that leaves E1s through E3s as the only people who are earning their pay.
    Military “retirement” isn’t actually retirement, and a military “pension” isn’t actually a pension.
    Military retirement pay used to be called retainer pay, since you are being retained. A lot of retired folk agitated to have that term changed to “retired” pay because they wanted to be exempt from income taxes in those states that exempt pensions. And they were successful.
    People who are retired from the military are still subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but only until the day they die. And, they can be called back to active duty at the pleasure of the President at any age (and during W.W.II many were), also only until the day they die. If you are retired from the military and you know anything about cryptography, it would be wise to keep your uniforms and gear ready to go, even if you are in your eighties. Some people like that were involuntarily recalled during the Korean war. I know of one young man, aged eighty-three, who had to be granted a waiver in order to accommodate his wheel chair. At the moment he is no longer subject to recall or the UCMJ, by reason of death.

  • P. Hayes

    “Well, the military does have a large group that receives pay for doing noting. We call them officers. ; )”
    Even with the smiley, I find that remark offensive (and uncharitable). Especially so, since it includes all commissioned officers, warrant officers, and non-commissioned officers. Let’s see, that leaves E1s through E3s as the only people who are earning their pay.
    Military “retirement” isn’t actually retirement, and a military “pension” isn’t actually a pension.
    Military retirement pay used to be called retainer pay, since you are being retained. A lot of retired folk agitated to have that term changed to “retired” pay because they wanted to be exempt from income taxes in those states that exempt pensions. And they were successful.
    People who are retired from the military are still subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but only until the day they die. And, they can be called back to active duty at the pleasure of the President at any age (and during W.W.II many were), also only until the day they die. If you are retired from the military and you know anything about cryptography, it would be wise to keep your uniforms and gear ready to go, even if you are in your eighties. Some people like that were involuntarily recalled during the Korean war. I know of one young man, aged eighty-three, who had to be granted a waiver in order to accommodate his wheel chair. At the moment he is no longer subject to recall or the UCMJ, by reason of death.

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ Joe Carter

    P. Hayes,
    Even with the smiley, I find that remark offensive (and uncharitable). Especially so, since it includes all commissioned officers, warrant officers, and non-commissioned officers. Let’s see, that leaves E1s through E3s as the only people who are earning their pay.
    As a staff non-commissioned officer myself, I would be thoroughly surprised if any NCOs or SNCOs truly believe that I was including them under the rubric of

  • http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com Joe Carter

    P. Hayes,
    Even with the smiley, I find that remark offensive (and uncharitable). Especially so, since it includes all commissioned officers, warrant officers, and non-commissioned officers. Let’s see, that leaves E1s through E3s as the only people who are earning their pay.
    As a staff non-commissioned officer myself, I would be thoroughly surprised if any NCOs or SNCOs truly believe that I was including them under the rubric of

  • P. Hayes

    Joe,
    I work for the “military” end of the military.com address, not the “com” end. I don’t know anything about who is paying whom for what, but nothing surprises me anymore.

  • P. Hayes

    Joe,
    I work for the “military” end of the military.com address, not the “com” end. I don’t know anything about who is paying whom for what, but nothing surprises me anymore.

  • Paul5388

    Joe,
    I have to agree, “officer” doesn’t have any qualifiers,like “non-commisioned” or “warrant”. I ETSed as an E-5 SGT and I sure didn’t think you were referring to me with that comment!

  • Paul5388

    Joe,
    I have to agree, “officer” doesn’t have any qualifiers,like “non-commisioned” or “warrant”. I ETSed as an E-5 SGT and I sure didn’t think you were referring to me with that comment!

  • Kevin W

    Geez, the joke about the officers was just that, a joke. Look at the friggin’ pay charts, for godssake, and you’ll see that an O3 with four years’ TIS makes more than the CSM of the Army. Again, it’s something we signed up for and understand, and we know that most officers earn their pay. And we also know that many officers are so useless, such a waste of time and energy and funds, that the money would be better spent to send them to early retirement. So chill out.
    I for one have no sympathy whatsoever with someone who doesn’t carefully read an enlistment contract. Damn. This isn’t like buying life insurance or something you can just return to the store–you are joining the Armed Forces of the United States, for a minimum of four years (in my case). Is your assignment guaranteed? Is you MOS training guaranteed? How about your enlistment bonus, if one applies? College loan repayment? It’s all in there–take an hour and read it.
    I did nine years’ active duty, and so am no longer on the IRR lists. Presumably, the country can recall me in an emergency, and I will have a choice to make: do I return to the uniform and the lifestyle that I loved, but left? Or do I tell the government to go screw themselves, and face the consequences? It’s free country, and I can do either. So can they.

  • Kevin W

    Geez, the joke about the officers was just that, a joke. Look at the friggin’ pay charts, for godssake, and you’ll see that an O3 with four years’ TIS makes more than the CSM of the Army. Again, it’s something we signed up for and understand, and we know that most officers earn their pay. And we also know that many officers are so useless, such a waste of time and energy and funds, that the money would be better spent to send them to early retirement. So chill out.
    I for one have no sympathy whatsoever with someone who doesn’t carefully read an enlistment contract. Damn. This isn’t like buying life insurance or something you can just return to the store–you are joining the Armed Forces of the United States, for a minimum of four years (in my case). Is your assignment guaranteed? Is you MOS training guaranteed? How about your enlistment bonus, if one applies? College loan repayment? It’s all in there–take an hour and read it.
    I did nine years’ active duty, and so am no longer on the IRR lists. Presumably, the country can recall me in an emergency, and I will have a choice to make: do I return to the uniform and the lifestyle that I loved, but left? Or do I tell the government to go screw themselves, and face the consequences? It’s free country, and I can do either. So can they.

  • Scott

    I’m dissapointed – nobody took the obvious shot at W for going aWol when he had signed a contract for military service. Anyhoo, on Army recruiting:
    Guard Reports Serious Drop in Enlistment
    WASHINGTON, Dec. 16 – In the latest signs of strains on the military from the war in Iraq, the Army National Guard announced on Thursday that it had fallen 30 percent below its recruiting goals in the last two months and would offer new incentives, including enlistment bonuses of up to $15,000.
    In addition, the head of the National Guard Bureau, Lt. Gen. H Steven Blum, said on Thursday that he needed $20 billion to replace arms and equipment destroyed in Iraq and Afghanistan or left there for other Army and Air Guard units to use, so that returning reservists will have enough equipment to deal with emergencies at home.
    The sharp decline in recruiting is significant because National Guard and Army Reserve soldiers now make up nearly 40 percent of the 148,000 troops in Iraq, and are a vital source for filling the ranks, particularly those who perform essential support tasks, like truck drivers and military police.
    General Blum said the main reason for the Army National Guard’s recruiting shortfall was a sharp reduction in the number of recruits joining the Guard and Reserve when they leave active duty. In peacetime the commitment means maintaining their ties to the military with a weekend of service a month and two weeks in the summer.
    Over the last 30 years, General Blum said, the Guard has counted on these soldiers with prior military service for about half of its recruits. Since the Sept. 11 attacks, however, many of these soldiers have been hesitant to join the Guard because of the increasing likelihood that America’s citizen-soldiers will be activated and sent to Iraq or Afghanistan for up to 12 months. Indeed, many of the active-duty soldiers the Army would like to enlist in the Reserves have recently fought in Afghanistan or Iraq, and some have no inclination to do so again…
    …General Blum’s remarks come just a few days after the chief of the Army Reserve, Lt. Gen. James R. Helmly, told The Dallas Morning News that the Army Reserve recruiting was in a “precipitous decline” that if unchecked could inspire renewed debate over the draft. General Helmly told the newspaper that he personally opposed reviving the draft….
    …Some military personnel specialists offered a much more pessimistic forecast and said the lower recruiting numbers were the harbingers of tougher times to come.
    “I don’t think this is an aberration,” said David R. Segal, a military sociologist who directs the Center for Research on Military Organization at the University of Maryland. “I think we’re going to see significant shortfalls in recruitment, and I think we’re to begin to see retention problems. We’re also going to see increasing concerns at the state level about how the Guard will man itself and perform its state missions.” …

  • Scott

    I’m dissapointed – nobody took the obvious shot at W for going aWol when he had signed a contract for military service. Anyhoo, on Army recruiting:
    Guard Reports Serious Drop in Enlistment
    WASHINGTON, Dec. 16 – In the latest signs of strains on the military from the war in Iraq, the Army National Guard announced on Thursday that it had fallen 30 percent below its recruiting goals in the last two months and would offer new incentives, including enlistment bonuses of up to $15,000.
    In addition, the head of the National Guard Bureau, Lt. Gen. H Steven Blum, said on Thursday that he needed $20 billion to replace arms and equipment destroyed in Iraq and Afghanistan or left there for other Army and Air Guard units to use, so that returning reservists will have enough equipment to deal with emergencies at home.
    The sharp decline in recruiting is significant because National Guard and Army Reserve soldiers now make up nearly 40 percent of the 148,000 troops in Iraq, and are a vital source for filling the ranks, particularly those who perform essential support tasks, like truck drivers and military police.
    General Blum said the main reason for the Army National Guard’s recruiting shortfall was a sharp reduction in the number of recruits joining the Guard and Reserve when they leave active duty. In peacetime the commitment means maintaining their ties to the military with a weekend of service a month and two weeks in the summer.
    Over the last 30 years, General Blum said, the Guard has counted on these soldiers with prior military service for about half of its recruits. Since the Sept. 11 attacks, however, many of these soldiers have been hesitant to join the Guard because of the increasing likelihood that America’s citizen-soldiers will be activated and sent to Iraq or Afghanistan for up to 12 months. Indeed, many of the active-duty soldiers the Army would like to enlist in the Reserves have recently fought in Afghanistan or Iraq, and some have no inclination to do so again…
    …General Blum’s remarks come just a few days after the chief of the Army Reserve, Lt. Gen. James R. Helmly, told The Dallas Morning News that the Army Reserve recruiting was in a “precipitous decline” that if unchecked could inspire renewed debate over the draft. General Helmly told the newspaper that he personally opposed reviving the draft….
    …Some military personnel specialists offered a much more pessimistic forecast and said the lower recruiting numbers were the harbingers of tougher times to come.
    “I don’t think this is an aberration,” said David R. Segal, a military sociologist who directs the Center for Research on Military Organization at the University of Maryland. “I think we’re going to see significant shortfalls in recruitment, and I think we’re to begin to see retention problems. We’re also going to see increasing concerns at the state level about how the Guard will man itself and perform its state missions.” …