Marine Corps Rules for Gun Fighting

Military — By on November 10, 2006 at 3:09 am

The Marine Corps Birthday makes me nostalgic for the good ol’…well, maybe good is too strong a word. In fact, I can’t say that I miss being on active duty; but I do miss being with my fellow Marines.
Thinking about my friends who are getting shot at by ungrateful Iraqis reminded me of this list, an old Corps favorite, on how to act in a gun fight:
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you’re probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on “pucker factor” than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.


11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won’t work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don’t drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a “4.”
Navy Rules for Gun fighting:
1. Go to Sea
2. Send the Marines
3. Drink Coffee



  • http://successcreeations.com/ Chris Cree

    As a former Navy man let me give you a resounding, “Aye, aye!” to your post. And yes I know there’s no such thing as a former Marine.
    Now where’s my coffee cup?

  • http://www.wallsofthecity.net Linoge

    And that is why I love (and respect the holy hell out of) the Marines.

  • http://lettersfromnyc.mu.nu michele

    Great advice. I’m going to print this post and send it off to some of the young Marines I correspond with.
    Thanks you for your service and words of wisdom.
    Happy Birthday!

  • http://www.cbhd.org Matthew

    21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
    Somehow I’m glad to just now find this out about you.

  • Kaffinator

    Actually if he is following rule 13 he will have at least two plans to kill you.

  • ex-preacher

    Somehow this list reminds me so much of the advice Jesus gave in the Sermon the the Mount.

  • chris

    I always loved this list. I don’t miss active duty either, but I do miss my Marines. Semper Fi and Happy birthday Marine.

  • AndyS

    Thinking about my friends who are getting shot at by ungrateful Iraqis…

    You know, Joe, even if this is intended to be light and funny, using the phrase “ungrateful Iraqis” is the height of moral turpitude. The best science tells us at least 400,000 Iraqis have died that would not have had we not invaded their country (with 900,000 being the upper bound). It’s an odd or perhaps spasmodic kind of Christianity you practice.

  • http://burketokirk.blogspot.com Tertium Quid

    These points are grimly humorous. They remind me of the grim humor my father has about his military service in Korea.
    Thank you for your service.

  • ucfengr

    The best science tells us at least 400,000 Iraqis have died that would not have had we not invaded their country
    Actually what the “best science” gives us is what folks who know science and mathematics call a SWAG (Scienticfic Wild Ass Guess), and I think the “S” is being generous. Sad really.

  • jd

    AndyS appeals to the “best science.” I think that’s probably on the list of logical fallacies. It certainly makes the list for phrases that are “supposed to end all discussion.”
    I guess that means that AndyS has examined all the scientific evidence (whatever that is) for deaths of Iraqis and has concluded that the best science tells us that 400,000 is the best scientific number. You guys are so smart.

  • http://benedictionblogson.com Bene D

    “Ungrateful Iraqis” – did Ann Coutler come by and do some ghost writing?
    Permit him his grim nostalgia, he sacrificed the prime of his life. Joe, and every other Joe out there will always miss his/her fellow Marines.
    Why not just say thanks and save the arguments for another day?

  • Chuck

    I favor GPU’s over large caliber weapons.
    See this site about GPU’s
    http://sqrt-1.home.comcast.net
    Now I know why I love the Air Force.
    Happy Vet’s Day to all the Vets.

  • Zuniga

    The best science tells us at least 400,000 Iraqis have died that would not have had we not invaded their country
    If you’re referring to the very flawed “study” that was recently published, think again. It’s flawed beyond repair (a variation of FUBAR) and was, by the author’s own admission, rushed into print for it’s political timing.
    Now, go back and read the NYTimes from a week or so ago where they admit that Saddam was about a year from having nukes and rethink that figure of 400,000 and multiply it by, oh, three or four–the sure result if we’d allowed Saddam to stay in power.
    Semper Fi, Joe, from a reformed grunt. I miss getting paid to blow things up.

  • Doc

    Don’t feed the trolls, I know, but…
    Of course the idiotically flawed study re numbers of Iraqis killed b/o the invasion has already been answered ably above. BUT
    Even if the numbers were accurate, there is nothing inherently unChristian about the enterprise. If a properly instituted government finds that it was advisable to cause such casualties to an enemy in order to aid in the protection of their own citizenry, it is the duty before God of said government to cause said casualties.
    As to one who objects such as the poster above did, he either takes Scripture as authoritative or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t, then I would simply wonder why he objects to the deaths at all. It’s not as if there’s anything wrong with killing, is there? Oh, there is? Says who? I’m waiting…
    If he does take Scripture as authoritative, then he may be one of the minute percentage of truly serious Bible-believing Christians who are also consistent pacificists. If so, I may want to protect him as an example of an endangered species. Scripturally, however, he has to ignore the fact that soldiers are not condemned for being soldiers, and that government does not carry the sword for nothing. If he’s not a pacifist, then we’re just arguing over tactics. Perhaps he was against the invasion of Guadalcanal, too. Personally, I’d prefer to leave the method of fighting the enemy to the professionals.

  • http://passionatepatriotism.blogspot.com Nicholas Cardot

    Great Post. Thank You for your service and God bless you!

  • Russell

    Even if the numbers were accurate, there is nothing inherently unChristian about the enterprise. If a properly instituted government finds that it was advisable to cause such casualties to an enemy in order to aid in the protection of their own citizenry, it is the duty before God of said government to cause said casualties.
    *******
    Real life is a bit messier than this paragraph. There are many problems with this scenario. Is it our God given right to kill thousands of innocent civilians, abortions, if you will, because Saddam was seen as a possible threat? The American people would never have o.k.ed this war if it hadn’t been lied to about an al queda link. I’m not a Catholic but I agree with the Pope who says pre=emptive wars are wrong.

  • U. P. Man

    Navy Rules for Gun fighting:
    1. Go to Sea.( In floating industrial accidents waiting to happen )
    Before 2. Use really big guns destroy beach. (We don’t want Banana Marines)
    2. Send the Marines (Take the Marines to the Beach under heavy fire )(Repeat as neccessary) (Pick up wounded) (Repeat as neccessary)
    3. Drink Coffee (While fixing the Marines, the Marines toys, the Navy toys that Marines broke.)
    4. Scare big bad Marines with needles.

  • jd

    Russell:
    Please allow me to explain regarding being lied to:
    Shut up!!

  • Doc

    Russell asks: “Is it our God given right to kill thousands of innocent civilians, abortions, if you will, because Saddam was seen as a possible threat?”
    Trick question. No one is innocent.
    In fact, considering the state of the world today, the inadequacy of our ‘moats’ (Pac and Atl) to protect us anymore, and the availability of weaponry that small groups of the enemy can bring to bear on our citizenry, any nation that allows it’s people to express hatred towards us and teach their children to hate us should be considered to be at war with us. They are part of a trans-national group with whom we are at war: Islam. If Russell and his ilk were in charge after Pearl Harbor, they would have refused to attack Guadalcanal because the commander there wasn’t Yamamoto.

  • AndyS

    Even if the numbers were accurate, there is nothing inherently unChristian about the enterprise. If a properly instituted government finds that it was advisable to cause such casualties to an enemy in order to aid in the protection of their own citizenry, it is the duty before God of said government to cause said casualties.

    There is little scarier than the mindset that causes a person to write such a statement. But naturally someone immediately comes up with a contender for equal scariness:

    In fact, considering the state of the world today, the inadequacy of our ‘moats’ (Pac and Atl) to protect us anymore, and the availability of weaponry that small groups of the enemy can bring to bear on our citizenry, any nation that allows it’s people to express hatred towards us and teach their children to hate us should be considered to be at war with us. They are part of a trans-national group with whom we are at war: Islam.

    So we have two interesting propositions:

    1. Any sort of slaughter is justified (apparently including killing of non-combatant women and children) as long as it is mandated by a “properly instituted government.”

    2. We are a war with a religion — which might make any or all of the 1 billion Muslims fair game, perhaps even the ones who are US citizens.

    Why stop there? The natural place to go I think is to declare the USA (or maybe just Alabama, Mississippi, and Wyoming) God’s choosen and go to war on everybody else.

    Is it impossible to have any sort of rational discussion here? I brought up a valid point in my first comment on this thread. I’ll check my browser, maybe it’s channeling Little Green Footballs.

  • jd

    According to AndyS:
    “I brought up a valid point in my first comment on this thread.”
    You might be the only one to agree with that.

  • http://www.politicalpistachio.blogspot.com Douglas V. Gibbs

    Great post. My dad loved it too. He was in the Marine Corps (Vietnam Vet). This is why I joined the Navy. I had already been in the Marines. He had raised me.
    Semper Fi.

  • Russell

    We can set aside the fear of Islam argument the election is over. What we must do is what England and the rest of Europe are doing with great success, and that is working with the Muslin community to stop terrorism. That is exactly how the latest plane bombing threat was discovered in England. Also, Muslims are not as blood thirty as some would like us to believe. After 9/11 Bin Laden lost much of the good will that he had had.
    “Although some Arabs and Muslims took pleasure in the suffering inflicted on 9/11 — Schadenfreude in German, the most common response among jihadists and religious nationalists was a vehement rejection of al Qaeda’s strategy and methods. When Soviet troops invaded Afghanistan in 1979, there were calls for jihad everywhere in Arab and Muslim lands, and tens of thousands flocked to the country to fight the invaders. In stark contrast, when the U.S. military invaded in 2001 to topple an Islamist regime, there was, as the political scientist Fawaz Gerges points out, a “deafening silence” from the Muslim world, and only a trickle of jihadists went to fight the Americans. Other jihadists publicly blamed al Qaeda for their post-9/11 problems and held the attacks to be shortsighted and hugely miscalculated. John Mueller of Foreign Affairs
    By the way JD, I will shut up out of respect for the site owner if he asks it.

  • http://alangrey.blogspot.com Alan Grey

    Amusing…have you also read the “213 things I am not allowed to do in the army”?
    Also, your new style sheet is broken in firefox 1.5
    When I click on the more link, I cannot see the first part of the post anymore. I can only scroll up as far as where the anchor for more is set.

  • C.Magee

    My respect and admiration to all who abide by these rules, putting themselves in harm’s way for others.

  • http://www.moloth.com Moloth

    Lots of talk of killing people in that list… seems kinda strange coming from a place called “evangelicaloutpost”
    I suppose Evangelicals don’t follow the Ten Commandments?
    “Thou shalt not kill”, and all that. I guess religious hypocrisy is easier to follow.

  • Russell

    Rumsfield, one of the former highest Bush officials, can’t dare leave the country for fear of being arrested for torture crimes.
    http://www.alternet.org/story/44213/
    It goes beyond hypocrisy.

  • caleb

    EXODUS 20-12
    ” THOU SHALT NOT KILL ”
    DICTIONARY
    hypocrite
    Main Entry: hyp·o·crite
    Pronunciation: ‘hi-p&-”krit
    Function: noun
    1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
    - hypocrite adjective
    BINGO… how’s your good buddy Haggard doing…
    Is that Defeat I smell coming from your way ??

  • bob l

    I think we all forget that there is another passage in the bible besides the ten commandments. Itis Psalms 144. you should try and read it entirely. Islam is not a threat, Radical Islam is.
    Blessed be the lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle “Pslams 144″

  • bob l

    So i am not judged a hypocrite i belive in war and premtive strikes. I belive war is hell and that some where some one get what they have coming. I have served In the Airforce the Army and now i am serving again. I love this country and my right shoot somebody if they whant to shoot me. That said lets not forget that this is a day to represent the american G.I. Lets not forget our freedom was at there sacrafice. As far as i am concered very few can say semper fi and live it. Jesus christ and the Marine corp.

  • Russell

    bob, So Jesus should just shut up with his “turn the other cheek,” philosophy? Do you still refuse to eat pork or follow a million other old testament laws? Do you recommend people like Lot, get drunk and have incest with their daughters?

  • joe woods

    kill those desert spawned blasphemers if their evil children and women die oh well less ways for them to spawn each other and attack this great nation of ours sad but true if they spread their filthy religion 9/11 will just happen again somewhere else. they were about to use their nukes on us we had to protect ourselves we are the true believers and the marines protect their own god bless them. and lets hope we can just blow them all up without risk to our loved ones and good riddance

  • Chris

    caleb writes:
    29
    EXODUS 20-12
    ” THOU SHALT NOT KILL ”
    DICTIONARY
    hypocrite
    blah…blah…blah….
    _______________________________________________
    Actually tell me where in the article it actually says to Kill anyone? It does make reference that someone may kill you, but never does it say to actually kill the opponent.
    I will agree that it alludes to killing someone, but if you want to use dictionary quotes:
    hu·mor (hymr) “humor” n.
    1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.
    2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.

  • bob l

    I am siply saying that even the bible justifies war. i do not belive civilians should suffer. With war comes carnage on a scale i hope most will never have to see. My only complaint about this was is the children will carry the scars. That and oil prices went up, since that why we aparently invaded.

  • Jim

    “What we must do is what England and the rest of Europe are doing with great success”
    Hmm, lets take a look back at that Shall we? If great success is having Paris burned twice, while police forces are helpless to stop it, when towns in Belgium are overran by Islamist Extreamist and they call the area’s “there land”., When far right wing groups who are as deadly as the left grow in power as a response of democratic failings., And lastly when censorship and goverment apologies are given to islamist extreamist, over a cartoon, after setting fire to your Embassies, and threating to tear down your way of life. And lets not forget how our “Allies” Fled like the plauge in Iraq, or are making back handed deals with the Taliban is success, I don’t want to see what Failure is. Funny thing is the christian is seen as the bigger threat, only as he protest immoral pratices, last I looked besides protest and talk they’ve not beheaded people and set fire to portions of a city. :-/ And in case you come back and act like this is the words of some haulty Christian, I’m not part of the faith, I just can’t stand by as someone slanders the good name of soldiers.
    We are at War. A war of civilizations. In the end there will be no compromise, or a utopia. Only one may win. Its funny we adapt this socialist tones, never mind the Soviet Union was a resounding failure, who in its last days had prayer in its schools. Or in the case of the Peoples Republic of China who is far more Autoritarian than communist. Some socialist pratices are okay, such as fair wages and a standard of living, but the philosiphical ideals are best kept out of your hands. For instance in the relm of abortion, only in incest, rape, and life endangerment should it be caried out. When it is okay to do so reguardless as is the ever growing case, it is no longer a case of Moral Infringment, but against Evolutionary Morality, any species that can put a single person over its collective young, and the means to reproduce will have the same fate as the Dinosuar, or the solitary Tiger.
    Make no mistakes, Politics and war to have a thin line, and it takes to groups to start a war. We may not want to fight, but I assure you, they do. And if they had the means to do so, they would wipe away ALL “infadels, and the uncleaned”, as is called upon them to do in the Book of Islam, the Koran.
    Sura 5:51 commands Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends.
    Sura 9:29 commands Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians until they either submit to Allah or else agree to pay a special tax.
    Anyways on Topic, I liked the Shooters guide very much, I was an Army ROTC Cadet, but due to an arm injury I’m not able to enlist. It takes alot of guts do to what these men do, and with out them you could not preach your Historically PROVEN fault ideals. In War people die, and had we not been so politically correct we would have done to them what we had to Germany and Japan and wiped the floor with them. There truely is no peace, only Ceasefires between the wars. Nations that do not maintain this rule soon, like the Europeans find themselves in the modern world with little relavance and future, only in the minds of idealist shall they be remembered.

  • http://www.moloth.com Moloth

    Wow… and here i thought that Islam was the “religion of peace”!
    I thought the list was funny, witty and pretty cool… until i saw that it was posted on a site that has “reflections from an evangelical worldview” (its in the header, check it out).
    So.. the list is from an Evangelical worldview? i believe it. Christian evangelicals are just as fundamentalist, just as hypocritical, just as ignorant and just as intolerant as any Jihadist.
    Praise Jesus and pass the ammo!
    ALLAH-LALALALA! *fires Ak-47 into the air*

  • Russell

    bob, I will agree with you on most of that. : )

  • Ken (USMC Ret)

    It’s easy to lose track and focus. This started out, as a shout out to our fellow military folks. A thank you, for the blessing we have been able to enjoy. These blessings, or gifts came at a price. A sacrifice of blood and lives. Freedom isn’t free! That’s a pretty easy concept to grasp, or at least is should be. Horrible things happen in war, to both sides. Casualties can not be limited to only those in uniform. This is especially true when the enemy uses the civilian population as the shield. Why do they do it? Propaganda is why. They know how bad it looks when innocents are killed. This frequently causes us to hesitate. Hesitation on the battlefield will kill you. I am truly sorry for the lost lives, of those who are truly innocent, but if someone shoots an RPG out of the window of your house/mud hut etc, be prepared to meet your maker. The militaries job it not to pass judgment on the individual. Only God can do that. My job is to help them arrange the meeting. Semper Fi.

  • Ken (USMC Ret)

    It’s easy to lose track and focus. This started out, as a shout out to our fellow military folks. A thank you, for the blessing we have been able to enjoy. These blessings, or gifts came at a price. A sacrifice of blood and lives. Freedom isn’t free! That’s a pretty easy concept to grasp, or at least is should be. Horrible things happen in war, to both sides. Casualties can not be limited to only those in uniform. This is especially true when the enemy uses the civilian population as the shield. Why do they do it? Propaganda is why. They know how bad it looks when innocents are killed. This frequently causes us to hesitate. Hesitation on the battlefield will kill you. I am truly sorry for the lost lives, of those who are truly innocent, but if someone shoots an RPG out of the window of your house/mud hut etc, be prepared to meet your maker. The militaries job it not to pass judgment on the individual. Only God can do that. My job is to help them arrange the meeting. Semper Fi.

  • Ken (USMC Ret)

    It’s easy to lose track and focus. This started out, as a shout out to our fellow military folks. A thank you, for the blessing we have been able to enjoy. These blessings, or gifts came at a price. A sacrifice of blood and lives. Freedom isn’t free! That’s a pretty easy concept to grasp, or at least is should be. Horrible things happen in war, to both sides. Casualties can not be limited to only those in uniform. This is especially true when the enemy uses the civilian population as the shield. Why do they do it? Propaganda is why. They know how bad it looks when innocents are killed. This frequently causes us to hesitate. Hesitation on the battlefield will kill you. I am truly sorry for the lost lives, of those who are truly innocent, but if someone shoots an RPG out of the window of your house/mud hut etc, be prepared to meet your maker. The militaries job it not to pass judgment on the individual. Only God can do that. My job is to help them arrange the meeting. Semper Fi.

  • http://fark.com Saint Germain

    I surely disagree with most of your political / world – views.
    That said, Thank you, and all members of the armed forces!
    I greatly appreciate y’alls willingness to be the best professional killers you can be, at the bidding of your country.
    Had this been a just war, all of you would be heroes.
    Even as is, many of you are.
    Thank you.
    I’d buy you a beer, then sit at different table …
    Have served, alongside you, with a longer rifle.
    Rules vary.
    Pop em beyond 900 yards, they never shoot back.

  • Ajakk

    For those of you who don’t read evangelicaloutpost regularly, you should realize that Joe Carter (the author) is a recently retired Marine who is also a very devout Evangelical Christian. There is a very complex doctrine of “Just War” within the Christian Church and dismissing the entire Christian religion based upon your simplistic view of it belies your own level of thought.
    Also, a proper translation of the 5th Commandment is “Thou shalt not murder.” The translation of “Thou shalt not kill” was promolgated because it was mistranslated in the KJV. The Hebrew word used clearly means murder, not kill.

  • Sorcerer

    Now, if we could get the Marines to unload on the evangelicals…
    Semper Fi!

  • John Schmidt

    I pray for a marine president for just one term… that’s all we’d need. The worst leaders of all time were idealists, we have to look at the realities of these murderers at the door.

  • nobody

    Jim,
    Regarding abortion: I don’t see a problem with it. Right now we need about 1 and 1/4th earths to sustain the population. Those that advocate unbridled reproduction are draining our resources and hastening us along the path of extinction. When resources become limited, acts of cruelty, such as invading other sovereign states to take their oil come into being.
    Regarding christianity and its innocuousness: Have you heard of the inquisition?
    Are 50 innocent lives worth 1?
    Then there is the question of morality. The interesting thing about following religion x or religion y is that they are all based on premises that are unverifiable. That’s ok as long as the followers realize that saying that one is better than the other is like saying that the yellow sweater is prettier than the purple. Now we run into trouble when the followers of these doctrines decide that it’s ok to use these “teachings” to fashion the world. What sense does it make to have a few billion people kill each other over a bit of intuition. Better yet, why should they kill each other over something that most of them have not even properly examined.
    Although I think that certain aspects of religion are helpful to those that choose not to define morality for themselves or are somehow incapable, the fact that it is given to them causes problems for the rest of us. They didn’t have to think. So they read these doctrines, take them literally or out of context, then unleash upon the world the savagery of their unrefined nature.

  • Able Baker

    Please send a copy of your “Navy Rules” to the families of the Navy corpsmen and Navy support personnel who have been injured or killed in Iraq. I’m sure that they would appreciate it.

  • Rod Stanton

    Great!
    You are never too agressive!
    Gung Ho!
    A man from the “Old Corps!”
    Nam
    1/5
    1967 + 1968

  • Darren

    If you really read your bible and understood the state of mankind, you would know that there is no such thing as ‘innocent’ (for all have sinned).
    You also need to examine yourself as a christian and how you value your life as compared to others.
    I would postulate that to be a christian means to be a passifist.. no if’s and’s or but’s.. Why?.. because as a christian, we know where we are going when we die, but when we kill another, we have taken it upon our selfs to possibly send someone to hell.
    Now onto the issue of being a soldier and killing in the name of a government.. I see no conflict in this with being a christian. The realm of politics and government is very different and follows different rules from that of personal conduct.
    On a side note, it is of historical note that those that served in the military in early christiandom where required to serve an equal amount of time in pennance when they were discharged.
    As far as a ‘just war theory’.. I do not believe that such a thing is possible… it’s just an excersize of trying to project the moral ethos of the church upon the government.. which is very bad, because the church by definition should be non-political.

  • http://www.tault.com EliteGamer

    This is pretty creepy to actually hear the rules

  • joe alan

    unfortunately “double-tapping” those who shoot at our armed forces is against military law but some of my friend Army doctors (thank God) have found a way around it! sometimes you can just accidentally administer a little too much morphine to desert monkies in medvac… and if they overdose and flatline… they had it coming, and will pay for their sins in hell.
    keep it up marines, I, for one, am grateful for my freedom.

  • http://www.punk-rock.com wingnutx

    25. Bring a Navy Corpsman, in case you get a boo boo.
    /that’s the ‘few good men’ you hear jarheads yammer on about
    :)

  • Sandy

    Regarding the civilian casualties … how many have been killed by US Troops? How many have been killed by Iraqi insurgents? How many have been killed by the terrorists we are actually trying to defeat?
    My sincere thanks to all military personnel … past, present and future. I love my country and my freedom.

  • pass it on

    As a retired AF E-7, with a Marine son and a Navy daughter, I say pass this on and all give a big salute to all our troops no matter where they are or what they do. Even in peace time they are asked (told) to go places with little or no notice, and do things the civilian world can’t imagine. I don’t know of any civilian that would put up with half of it without screaming for a big pay raise, and then he’d probably call in sick.

  • “Hey Crewchief”

    Stop the shooting and start the bombing. Happy Veterans Day to all.How do you break up an insergent bingo game? Call out B-52. God bless.

  • Navy Vet

    Coffee? Ever hear of Naval Gunfire Support (now called Naval Surface Fire Support)? I can assure you every Marine who has landed under fire knows what that means.

  • hahah

    you’re mercenaries, and butchers, paid for what you do in blood money, don’t ask for thanks and go pick up your check!
    reminds me of the custodians who bitch about picking up trash it’s your job and someone has to do it. but don’t expect everyone to kiss your feet and grovel before your perfection like a saint.
    if you were a true patriot you would protect our country for free and not accept compensation for your work. volunteers all over the world go to help the sick and poor the same way christ did knowing they won’t get a penny for their work.
    go among the poor and wash the lowliest beggar’s feet, that’s a little more christian.
    besides… the first part of the word christian is “christ” and i’m sure if you went back in time and asked him what HIS kill count was he would say “zero” and be proud of it.

  • M. King

    24 items on the list…
    thats a lot of things for a Marine to remember…
    they typically don’t do well
    with numbers higher than 3 or 4…
    hehe.
    “How many Rangers does it take to change a light bulb?
    A:- None…we ain’t afraid of the dark!”
    -Frmr. Ranger

  • Scott

    Revelation 14
    14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
    19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
    20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
    Pretty impressive kill count. The point is, Christ is not a pacificist, and apparently has no expectations that Christians will be pacificists.
    On the other hand, Christ was not a liar, and has no expectation that any of you would be a liar. 900,000 dead because of our invasion? Somebody is lying.

  • Ungrateful Iraqi

    “ungrateful Iraqis”?
    I wonder why they are ungrateful?

  • Ken

    So you know your blog is on Fark.com and well like all things today online, snot nosed liberal Teenagers are overrunning it, so suspect some hate aimed at you. After all your just a “baby Killer” and War is useless, we all should bow to socialisim, and Anarchy, and live like cattle with all people doing as they wish, down with religion, and down with backbone. After all they are always right, and we are poor imbread son-ava bitches that can’t live our own lives. The way we have the last 5,000+ years. /end sarcasm.

  • Mike

    I never served although I wanted to and would go today in a heartbeat if I could (but I’m not sure the corp or any branch of the military would want a mid-40 sometting with bad knees and eye sight).
    Stumbled across this and found it hilarious.
    Thank you and your fellow “Jar Heads” for your service. And God Bless our men and women who are serving in Iraq and other hot spots around the globe.

  • Greg

    I saw a great shirt the other day. It had a Marine’s unit insignia on the front, and on the back had silouhettes of 4 or so riflemen, and said “Doing bad things to bad people.”
    Absolutely classic.

  • Someone

    I’d also like to thank our service men and women for their work. Keep up the good work and hope to see you again soon

  • Darren

    Your arguement that Christ is not a passifist has no merit at all.
    God is not a passifist.. Christ came as the prince of peace, lamb of God, etc.
    Also, if you look at the OT when Isreal was permitted to shed the blood of their enemies, it had to be at Gods command.. all attempts that Isreal made at waging war without God’s blessing always ended badly.
    And yes, when Christ returns, he will return as Judge, Jury, and Executioner at the last judgement…when God’s tolerance for humankinds transgressions runs out, God will once again exact his pound of flesh from human kind.
    The question is.. when we as christians mandate a war by proxy through our goverment, have we recieved God’s permission to do so?.. if not, we are doomed to failure.

  • brian

    i laughed my head off

  • Clifford Odell

    Brother – love ya. Ang

  • Paul Deeb

    Paul,
    Thought this was funny..found it on a website called http://www.fark.com. Lots of great news stories and such there!
    Enjoy!
    Colette

  • Missed a rule or two

    25. Always have a forward observer or qualified radio operator in contact with Marine C.A.S., mortars, and/or artillery.
    26. Bring along armored vehicles with very big guns and plenty of ammo.

  • tom

    Katie Couric was interviewing a Marine sniper just home from Iraq, and in her most touchy-feely voice she asked, “What do you feel when you shoot the enemy?”
    “Recoil,” he said.

  • Joe wills

    all islamic women and children should die first to prevent their blasphemy. they should be BURNED and SLAUGHTERED in the name of jesus the christ the true prophet and our savior.
    all heathen religions should be abolished, so that their spawn can no longer harass peaceful Christians.
    all iraqi women and children should be sacrifices to our Lord, He who has chosen his flock in the name of righteousness and justice.
    kill them all.
    let their blood run in rivers from sea to shining sea.
    and may God have mercy on their souls

  • Wakka

    So if the Marines are so tough, why are they getting Whooped in Iraq? Why did they get Whooped in Vietnam too? Not sure why you are patting yourselves on the back when you keep LOSSING!

  • tom

    Wakka, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Try reading about Khe Sahn or Hue City and tell me the Marines were “whooped.” Try reading about Fallujah, where the Marines were so effective and moved so fast the insurgents were complaining that they could find no respite.
    Try reading about Korea, where Chinese troops were warned not to ambush the “yellow legs” (Marines wore leggings with a greenish-yellow tint) lest you come out on the wrong end of the fight. Or Tarawa, where the Japanese commander bragged that it would take a million men a thousand years to take the island; the Marines required a mere 72 hours.
    You seem to think that terrorists blowing up civilians somehow constitutues “whooping” the Marines. In short, try not to be the snot-nosed kid you appear to be and try learning a thing or two before commenting. (And learn to spell, by the way, or else you’ll keep “lossing” jobs when you grow up.)

  • GUNS

    It goes on the wall of the armory in the morning…right next to where I put my coffee (yes, my armory is in a floating tin can).

  • Joe wills

    tom learn grammar, the “whooped.” comment you made was quite childish… your periods are all wrong, take your own advice please before administering it to others. i don’t care about my conventions so you can suck my marine stick =D

  • Tony

    Uh, I hope this Joe guy is kidding with all these comments about the heathens, etc. Say, don’t you know that religion is a crutch for people that can’t think for themselves? C’mon, how do you Christianity is “true”? How can all religions be true? If you go by numbers of believers, Christians are screwed, man. How many Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims are there in the world? 700 million Hindus and climbing. More people have been killed in the name of religions than in any other cause. The hijackers on 9/11 were screaming “God is Great” when the planes when down. Why do you think the founders of this country separated Church and state? Extreme blind faith in ANYTHING, a religion, government, etc., will get you and a bunch of other people killed, every time. Religions are based on faith – which requires you to accept a bunch of un-provable tenets, that can never be empirically proved or disproved, blindly and without question. I hope they impeach Bush’s sorry, lying, stupid, drunk-driving, smirking, know-nothing Texas ass. He’s ruined the USA’s reputation around the world, when he could have taken the universal sympathy the world had after 9/11 and really parlayed it into something. But he blew it, he and Cheney and all their big oil buddies. Do you know how many people in Bush’s 1st administration were former Enron employees? More than 100. And you still think that WMD’s played some real part in this? hahahhaahah. Oh wait, there’s that blind faith again….

  • Tony

    Uh, I hope this Joe guy is kidding with all these comments about the heathens, etc. Say, don’t you know that religion is a crutch for people that can’t think for themselves? C’mon, how do you know Christianity is “true”? How can all religions be true? If you go by numbers of believers, Christians are screwed, man. How many Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims are there in the world? 700 million Hindus and climbing. More people have been killed in the name of religions than in any other cause. The hijackers on 9/11 were screaming “God is Great” when the planes when down. Why do you think the founders of this country separated Church and state? Extreme blind faith in ANYTHING, a religion, government, etc., will get you and a bunch of other people killed, every time. Religions are based on faith – which requires you to accept a bunch of un-provable tenets, that can never be empirically proved or disproved, blindly and without question. I hope they impeach Bush’s sorry, lying, stupid, drunk-driving, smirking, know-nothing Texas ass. He’s ruined the USA’s reputation around the world, when he could have taken the universal sympathy the world had after 9/11 and really parlayed it into something. But he blew it, he and Cheney and all their big oil buddies. Do you know how many people in Bush’s 1st administration were former Enron employees? More than 100. And you still think that WMD’s played some real part in this? hahahhaahah. Oh wait, there’s that blind faith again….

  • kyle whitaker

    good advice I hope we never need.

  • Taz

    Thanks so much for this and happy birthday (belated as this was just sent from a friend today)!
    I have to say I loved this and am a Marine from the first “visit” and Operation Southern Watch.
    There was one note however, item 5, I seem to remember always yelling and being yelled at to run TO the fire…not from it!
    To those serving now we respectfully salute you and thank you, to those who have served we honor and thank you, to those who care and are civilians we thank you. To those who rip on military members or don’t understand how you have the freedoms we fight so hard to protect…Please form a single line…start somewhere over in Iraq and tell them you’re from the US. Perhaps it will all become a little more clear.
    Semper Fi!

  • Brian

    amen

  • Ratgeber

    Everyone knows that those Islamo-fascists are just like Hitler.

  • Republican Guard Dog

    Forgot to put in :
    1) Read the Bible. Read Charge to Keep.
    2) Vote Republican.
    3) Don’t Fear Death.
    4) Be like the Great Marines of the past, the Huns, the Vikings, and the S.S.

  • Gerry Houvener

    Check this out and forward to Jim.

  • JD

    LOL – just a bunch of Yahoos aren’t ya?
    It is never OK to kill someone – Marine or not. If you believe in God, and someone were about to kill you you’d let them because God would sort it all out in the end.
    Marines and militaries in general may do a service to their country in war, but do a dis-service at home. They are all nutcases and need to be “decommisioned” after service. They are often a whiny, falsely authoritarian sore on society – sort of like the GOP and Kevin Federline.

  • One more

    You forgot one of my favorites:
    Remember that tracers work both ways.

  • Other

    I love reading Americans trying to convince themselves that what they do is not reprehensible. It’s so amusing.

  • MARINES VS NAVY

    thought you might find this humorous

  • honored_dad

    Great list!!
    Just got another letter from Harvard begging my son to enroll — I’ll be replying that he’s opted for a more honorable institution: the U.S.M.C.
    That’s right — our honor student enlisted at 17 and graduated a year early to preserve our freedom (even of those who abuse it). Ooh Rah!!

  • Wakka

    Hey Tom, when your beloved Marines go up against worthy opponents like the British Royal Marines or French Foreign Legion then I’ll be impressed. Not some untrained militias with second rate weapons and training like the Chinese, Viet Kong or Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah.Please note also that the Marines had M1A2 Abrahms for fire support. Please note also that Korea was a draw, you lost Vietnam and you are losing Iraq too.

  • Wakka

    Hey Tom, when your beloved Marines go up against worthy opponents like the British Royal Marines or French Foreign Legion then I’ll be impressed. Not some untrained militias with second rate weapons and training like the Chinese, Viet Kong or Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah.Please note also that the Marines had M1A2 Abrahms for fire support. Please note also that Korea was a draw, you lost Vietnam and you are losing Iraq too.

  • Hmmmm…

    Honestly, from a born pacifist, I still thought the post was great. I’m also a born-again Christian, and I still found no offense. Some of these arguments are worth thinking about, but my thoughts are, THEY picked the fight before and we turned the other cheek, like it says in the Bible, but then 9-11 happened and we didn’t turn our cheek that time, because nowhere in the Bible does it say we have to turn the other cheek TWICE. They started it and we’re finishing it.
    I always wanted to be in the military, but was never able to serve due to several medical reasons. My Uncle fought in Vietnam and has Graves Disease from it. My brother is an Ex-Marine and now lives with a shattered leg from serving. Many other relatives fought, and killed, for my country and my freedom and I’m proud of every one no matter how many they killed…Christians every one, and doing what they could to keep this country free.
    Thanks to ALL soldiers, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and Reserves for everything you do! My 11 adopted children, wife and I pray for you daily!
    God Bless the USA and the Soldiers that fight for us!

  • honored_dad

    Here’s my personal rule #25:
    It is better to live in Leavenworth, than to rest in Arlington.
    Achieve the mission first, preserve your brothers second, return home alive third.
    Keep the rules of engagement if they don’t hamper/prevent the first three priorities.

  • http://www.dmaestazonline.com Daniel

    As a active duty Navy E-6, you forgot for the Navy:
    sit in an air conditioned space and drink coffee after the morning shower…
    And Wakka, do you remember who was in Vietnam before we even had a thought of going there? Here is a hint, Vietnam used to be a French Colony, so using your defective reasoning, the Marines are just as elite if not more than the french.
    Some people wonder all their lives if they’ve made a difference. The Marines don’t have that problem. – Ronald Reagan

  • honored_dad

    PPS –
    I can’t believe the paucity of comment on rule #24!!
    Where’s the Beretta broadside to match the looney liberals and arrogant atheists?

  • Patton

    You know the Rangers lead the way, right?

  • Lone Sailor

    WOW! What interesting posts on an evangelical website from a rule set I saw years ago. Liked it then too. First every one of you makes me proud exercising your first amendment rights I fought for. We are the only country that has that by the way, Brits and Aussies don’t; I served in Iraq with them, they told me first hand.
    Now, where to start… I will try to keep it quick and simple.
    First, Happy Belated Birthday Marines!!
    Although Navy, I served under a Marine Colonel in Iraq. I would go to the gates of Hell and rip it off the hinges for that man! I did not fight the war for WMD. Neither did the US military. For those of you misinformed go to the White House website. Every speech President Bush made in public is recorded there somewhere if you care to dig deep enough for it. Never did President Bush say we were fighting this was for WMD or oil. I know because knowing I might go to war after 9/11 I watched every speech he made. Yes, the News twists things, I know that first hand. I was at the Jordanian Embassy in Iraq when it was attacked. When I can home I found out what the News reported about it was a lie. Some of what I did was in David Kay’s report. The report does not say we did not find any WMD, just that we did not find certain types of it. The news now reports we did not find a lot of WMD. Okay how much is too much?
    I went to war knowing I would come back changed. I went to war so my daughters would not have to. If you do not stand up to these people now they will just grow worse and a larger war would be required later. I saw things and did things I never want them to see or have to do, EVER! I came back very changed. The movie “Flag of our Fathers” hit it on the head when in the last scene or two the man said he did not remember the war fighting but the camaraderie. I remember going through a fire fight with my buddy to get beer in Baghdad, not so much the warfighting stuff. Yes I am a born again Christian and if what I did was a sin then I will answer for it, no one else. I went to war to protect the innocent (see above), look up self sacrifice. We liberated a country that needed liberating! Just for starters; Women can now walk the streets and some can now show their faces but most still wear black burkes. But now none fear being abducted and raped by the Hussein boys any more.
    Now on a lighter note: a few cool side notes and food for thought.
    1. The Baldest of the Bad Navy SEALs/UDT in Viet Nam now runs a Church camp.
    2. I have found no group of people in the US military more moral or more formally educated outside the military than Navy SEALs. (My Opinion)
    3. The only group to ever kick the Muslim’s butts and keep it kicked over the centuries was the Knights Templar. (I wish I knew that in advance of going. I would have worn my Knights Templar ring. Oh, well if we pull out of Iraq too soon that will cause the next war to start pretty soon and I can wear it then.)
    4. I was at Babylon in 2003. Like all previous rulers of Babylon Saddam knocked a brick out of every wall and added one that had written on it ‘I am his Excellency the Emperor Saddam Hussein Al Tikrit the forth Emperor of Babylon. The great great grand son of……’ Saddam was the forth person to try to rebuild Babylon and truly thought he was the forth emperor of Babylon. With that said read Daniel Ch 2. Remember that Daniel Chapter 2 has NOTHING to do with the end of the world or the second coming only the fate of Babylon. After reading it do you think Babylon (Iraq) will stay together or be split up like Yugoslavia was a few years ago? Think about how we found the Ruler of the Forth largest army in the world. Yes, I have pictures of the bricks and of Babylon including the prison Daniel was in.
    Keep the cards and letters coming, this is fun reading your all’s views. Free Speech; what a trip. :)
    Cheers,
    When you go home tell them for us and say:
    For your tomorrow we gave our today.
    P.S. Honored Dad remember – It is better to be judged by Twelve than carried by Six.

  • comradesi

    I am a civy, and some of these rules even i can employ. Nice post, just wished I lived in the States so I could employ more of them . . . . . .

  • Joey

    Without our Marines, all of you scrawny cowards would happily have your anuses in the air, and praying to Mecca five times a day. You smugly disrespect Marines and this country, while none of you possess the courage to even defend your own lives. Of course you disgust me.
    I am prepared for almost any eventuality. I am ready to fight and possibly die for this great country. Not for you whining weasels, but for my family and friends. I wish that I could fight all of you cowards, because at least then I would be assured of an easy victory.

  • Kirk in Vegas

    a couple of additional rules…….
    Remember that if the enemy is in range, then so are you.
    Tracers work both ways
    Take comfort in knowing that your weapon was built by the ABSOLUTE lowest bidder.

  • http://BrogdensMuse.MenofHonorMinistry.org Stuart L. Brogden

    Those who think governments do not have the moral authority to wage war or that all killing is wrong misread the Scriptures.
    The Commandment, “Thou shalt not kill” is more accurately interpreted, “Thou shalt not murder” – the Hebrew word “ratsach” being operative.
    Romans 13 and other Scriptures clearly give governments the moral authority to kill people – which must include the waging of war.
    Earth is not a representation of God’s Kingdom. It is a polluted temporal realm that He has permitted. We who are His are to shine His light in this dark world, to honor and glorify Him; while the temporal governments are to enforce order and punish evil doers.
    It’s in the Book!

  • Xeno

    When will the flaming end?
    You know, I used to think it was my duty to be all grim-faced and sad about the fact that liberals are eventually going to succeed in bringing down the greatest nation on the face of the Earth.
    But come on, when we’re settling this debate with bullets instead of flamespam, it’ll be funny as hell. I look forward to the day when there will be “no controlling legal authority” preventing us from killing all the God-damned liberals.
    I know, I took the oath too. And I meant it. I mean it still. I’ll defend the Constitution to the last…against ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic. Right now we still fight the war with our keyboards, and I’m fine with that. I’m more than a little miffed about having to live under a government that’s already lost virtually all connection with the mandate of the people as expressed by the Constitution, which is even now little more than an archaic collection of parchment in the eyes of the “law of the land”, but I can wait a little longer.
    By the way, when the time comes, I’m not using some piece of crap M16. I’d rather use my bare hands. Seriously.

  • bubba@hotmail.com

    Leave me alone

  • Loco@hotmail.com

    Mike no longer works with us. He cheated and he got fired

  • http://kewpie.blogspot.com Wah

    Without our Marines, all of you scrawny cowards would happily have your anuses in the air, and praying to Mecca five times a day. You smugly disrespect Marines and this country, while none of you possess the courage to even defend your own lives. Of course you disgust me.
    Is this a joke? Really, it has to be a joke. No one is that stupid in reality.
    The only way our freedom is in danger is from our own government, or an invading army. Invading another country to give *it* “freedom” has very little to do with what happens at home. When *our* government starts to spy on us, detain citizens indefinitely, and torture people, *that* is the danger to our freedom.
    But please, continue to be an internet tough guy. You have impressed us all with your bravado.

  • Nick

    You left out part of the rules for the Navy:
    1. Go to Sea.
    2. Shell large area containing enemy with 16-inch canon fire from Iowa class battleships.
    3. Send the Marines.
    4. Drink Coffee.

  • JOE

    I drank my share of coffee in the Navy. This discussion reminds me of a sound bit of advice I once heard which was “if someone tries to kill you, you try to kill ‘em right back”.
    It’s Muslim extremeists trying to kill us, but you hear almost nothing from the “non-extremeists” aginst the terrorism. At best, this makes them cowardly observers, and at worst it makes them terrorist collaborators. I have no problem with the deaths of terrorists or their collaborators, after all, they want me dead.
    If they don’t support the terrorism let them stand up and say so, otherwise, let the bodies fall where they may.

  • Greg

    Me too: Happy Belated Birthday Marines!!
    Thank you for your service
    Loved the gun rules!
    “More people have been killed in the name of religions than in any other cause”
    With the exception of Atheism (aka communism, fascism, etc.) which has killed 100x as many.
    I talked to a marine and a special forces guy awhile back. Both served in the Mid East. Both said the opposition was terrified of the marines and special forces. The enemy wasn’t so worried about the army and Guard, mostly due to the rules holding them back.
    Good work, gentlemen.
    400k killed. I doubt that number very much, especially if being trumped up by a highly biased media which has been proven wrong about most things having to do with the war, though I’m sure they’re fairly accurate about our own body count.
    Whether it’s 400k or 40k I expect that number also includes all enemy combatants and cooperators.
    War is horrible and THANK YOU MARINES and ALL THE OTHER SERVICES for being on the front lines so that we don’t have to speak German, be blown to pieces by some islamofanatic, or erased in a communist purge.
    Thank you for defending a system that allows some of us to be pacifists and others to ridicule you.
    “You know, I used to think it was my duty to be all grim-faced and sad about the fact that liberals are eventually going to succeed in bringing down the greatest nation on the face of the Earth.”
    Well, the rise of conservative and pro-military talk radio & blogs are a refreshing change from the rest of the media. It gives me hope.
    Thank you again, gentlemen, for all that you do.

  • Russell

    Are there any military people who have been over in Iraq who have an opinion on things like, what is the state of the Iraqi forces, and do they see a light at the end of the tunnel? I respect their opinions. I agree with the poster who says thanks for ability of all to post an opinion and after all, what does evangelical literally mean, but…. S: (adj) evangelical, evangelistic (marked by ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause)

  • Sean

    Nick, the Navy no longer has Iowa class battleships equipped with 16″ guns. We use expensive missiles now.

  • Michael

    While the author of the study is biased, his methodology is not. Check out This American Life ep 320 for details but in summary.
    1) The author is very experienced when it comes to counting war-dead and his studies have even been quoted by our government when politically palatable.
    2) The methodology is sound and an emphasis was placed creating as random a sample as possible
    3) He threw out data from statistical outliers such as Falujah (see point 2)
    4) Yes this number doesn’t distinguish between combatants and civillians, but it does contain demographic data that certainly implies the vast majority were civilians
    5) The mortality measure isn’t just a matter of shooting/bombing deaths, but also takes into account increases in auto accidents, increased mortality from disease, whether due to understocked hospitals, or it being simply to dangerous to travel. It should be noted that according to the study this is the first war where more people died from bullets/bombs than indirect causes.

  • kelly

    I’m not a religious man, and have no personal stake in the winning or loosing the arguments between these two polarized belief systems. I do, however, have a very real stake in the outcome of the facts of this matter as I prepare to return (with 24 of my brothers) to Iraq.
    FACT: There is a core of human beings who’ve organized, structured logistics and training systems, campaigned and motivated additional human beings, and committed absolutely base inhuman acts with the absolute, clear, singular intent: to eliminate supporters of Israel and beyond.
    Assuming that this is not the outcome we want, it becomes a matter of momentum and span. How much momentum do these human beings have, and what is their span of control? If the momentum is sufficiently slow, and their span of reasonable girth, we can use non-expedient methods to influence their behaviors. Otherwise we have to use more forceful methods.
    I don’t pretend to know which is the right answer. Either way, a lot of people will die. I am convinced that non-expedient methods will up the body count on my side, and forcing the subject in that direction is disrespectful in and of itself to those who have and are serving.

  • Russell

    kelly, can you answer my question?

  • Lone Sailor

    This is really some interesting reading. I am actually glad to see most of the misinformation is at a bare minimum and most of the discussions are Thanking the Marines and Peoples’ differences of the war being scripturally supported. I love to see such healthy debate and I enjoy reading both sides of it. With the exception of the few who lowered the conversation to foul language. I guess it is a hobby of mine now after returning from Iraq to see how people draw conclusions. Thank you all for your writings. I guess Mr. Bubba and Mr. Loco received more than they expected.
    I do want to return to the base theme of this post – Thank You Marines for your protection, support and Faithfulness to America. Also Happy Belated Birthday!
    Thank you Evangelical Outpost.com for allowing this post to flow and not removing it from your website.
    My two cents worth about these number of Iraqis killed many have thrown back and forth, I was there in the beginning and I did not hear about such numbers in the 400K level. However in June 2003 my team did start documenting the mass graves Saddam buried the Iranians and Local Iraqis in. Those numbers were up in the 100 K region by the end of June. Well documented, and again lots of pictures. However at these places as well as the WMD site surveys, the UN bombing (we knew it as the Canal Street hotel bombing), the Jordanian embassy bombing, the DHL plane being shot down at BIAP, and MANY other News breaking stories from the Summer of 2003. I noticed the same thing over and over again. There was not a single news reporter there. Don’t get me wrong there was some nice quality video from a few of these. Of course the Iraqi cameramen all said they were paid $100 American for News footage and $800 American for News footage that made the headlines. I did notice one thing that all news anchors until 1 April 2004 had the famous Blue Mosque in the background when they reported “From Baghdad”. That folks is the Mosque across the round about from the Sheridan Hotel and the same Hotel that is across the Tigris from the green zone. So I hope most of you are not basing your beliefs and statics of the Iraq War on what the News is reporting about it.
    So to the gentlemen or Ladies that were talking about the 400K dead. They were probably very close. I saw thousands and thousands of these graves and the families coming to ID the remains. Of course after 7+ years in shallow graves mothers would look at what was left of a pair of boots and swear it was their son’s. We would respectfully wrap the remains and present it to them. I have no idea how many Iraqis were killed. I think Saddam is only being charge with a thousand or so of the Kurds. I did not go that far north so I can’t talk to those numbers. Also I can’t tell you how many more he would have killed had we not invaded. Probably much more than the few thousand that killed during the invasion.
    Oh, before I go can anyone tell me who drew first blood? Who fired the first missile? Who killed the first military members? (37 were killed) Okay so it was just two peaceful French made exocet missiles. But only one actually blew up. They were French made after all.
    Thank you all for exercising your First Amendment rights. I had friends die to defend them. Take care and God Bless you all. I think I earned the right to say God when and where I please in public.
    Remember, those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
    Cheers,
    To those who fought for it:
    Freedom has a flavor the protected shall never know.
    From the wall of a bunker at Khe Sanh

  • russell

    Lone Sailor, Will you answer my Question?

  • Zhura

    PREVED MEDVED!!!
    According to this list of rules you would like to survive? :)
    Remember! On each your plan we have at least ten unpredictable and crazy fooleries! :))) This is our invincible weapon! Watch out!
    Happy Birthday!

  • russell

    Lone sailor makes the point not to believe the news. It would be good advice for people who watch only Fox news and the like. Studies have shown that people who watch Fox actually know less facts about Iraq. News papers are much better or a good magazine, Time, NewsWeek, ect We need to be much better informed than we are-the stakes are high!

  • Joey

    To WAH-
    You are exactly the type of person I had in mind when I wrote the above. You are nothing more than a grandstand heckler, wanting to be heard, but taking no risk. Spying? Torture? Please. If you aren’t doing anything illegal or dangerous, let them spy! Who cares! And, WAH, exactly WHEN did you last get tortured? I hope the scars don’t show. I know you would love to embrace the terrorists, or anyone else you are afraid of, but not me. I would prefer to go nose to nose with them. Honesty and honor are so much more preferable to your whining and cowardice. It is sad that Marines are forced to protect sissified stringbeans like yourself.

  • skull

    Wah, you and your sappy comments on the “horrors” of this country sicken me. Have you ever been in a real fight in your life? I mean where the other guy really wants to hurt you, and you must truly defend yourself? I doubt it. I would bet that the very idea of you being in any kind of danger causes you to sweat and suddenly the idea of fleeing dances in your head. We are in a clash for survival. The prime directive of Islam is to spread Islam to the four corners of the earth, by any means necessary. So, either stop smoking your “medicinal” weed and open your eyes, or go get fitted for your turban and grow a nice long beard. You idiotic, no good waste of space.

  • russell

    Joey, Torture is evil, period. Don’t try to justify it with any B.S.

  • russell

    Skull Is one to assume you think torture is good?

  • russell

    “The United States abides by the laws of war. Its Armed Forces, in their dealing with all other peoples, are expected to comply with the laws of war, in the spirit and the letter. In waging war, we do not terrorize helpless non-combatants, if it is within our power to avoid so doing. Wanton killing, torture, cruelty or the working of unusual hardship on enemy prisoners or populations is not justified in any circumstance. Likewise, respect for the reign of law, as that term is understood in the United States, is expected to follow the flag wherever it goes.”
    General George C. Marshall, 1950
    ———General George C. Marshall, 1950

  • http://www.natali.ua/ dead

    kill ‘em all and let god sort em out

  • Lone Sailor

    Again THANK YOU MARINES!! You are all Greatly Appreciated!!! Semper Fidelis!
    Mr. Russell,
    You have opened up a huge can of worms if you wish to talk of torture and laws of war. My honest opinion of why we are in a lot of the fix we are in over in Iraq is because of Lawyers. Yes, you heard that correctly, lawyers. It legally gets really weird when you discuss “Armed Military Members” and “Armed Non-Combatants”. The Armed Non-Combatants are basically people attacking or planning to attack our military personnel in a war zone but are not in uniform or even part of a Military. They are not considered POW’s or the current acronym is EPW’s (Enemy Prisoners of War). Thus they DO NOT fall under the Geneva Convention rules. Yep, Lawyers came up with the EPW thing. But all that is a bunny trail I do not want to follow.
    Sorry I did not address your question earlier. Your question, if I understand it, is: “What is the state of the Iraqi forces, and do they see a light at the end of the tunnel?”
    I actually chose not to answer, but since you specifically asked, Yes I will. I also will try to keep it brief. On a side note, funny you should ask but since I came home everyone that has asked that type of question has a preconceived idea and gets mad if my opinion does not match theirs. But a few weeks ago the Ambassador I worked for over there asked me that same question and honestly wanted to know what I thought. He was the first to do so since my return.
    I do not see Iraqi forces becoming strong and coming together locally to protect their own people. I do not see a good light at the end of the tunnel for Iraq as a whole country. Not due to outside involvement, i.e. the War.
    Here is my reasoning: First you have to understand something the News has not conveyed to most. Iraqis do not think nor act like we do and are loyal only to their own “Tribe” or “Clan”. Tribe or Clan are bad words but the only analogies I could think of that come close. So please do not fixate on my poor use of the words tribe and clan.
    I see the Iraqi forces as always being divided and not coming together as America does. Example: Ohio hates Michigan as far as football and maybe other things go and may even physically attack one another over a football outcome. However let an outsider attack Ohio and you could possibly empty the population of the state of Michigan with Michigan volunteers coming to Ohio’s Aide.
    That type of response would not happen in Iraq.
    To better explain what happened; think of all the Iraq tribes and clans as states such as Florida, Kentucky, etc. People from one Iraqi state dislike, distrust and even sometimes hate people from these other states in Iraq. So first you can not train Florida soldiers and police together with Missouri soldiers and police. Second, as we found out in 2004, you can not put Missouri Police in Florida to protect these Iraqi Floridians. These police will not only turn a blind eye to the crooks there but in some cases will help the crooks or “Tell’ the crooks were the money is hidden so to speak. BUT if you take these same Iraqi Missouri police and put them in Missouri they will clean house and make it almost as crime free as Mayberry.
    Unfortunately the News, as did the people that were in charge then, failed to see the difference between an Iraqi from this Iraqi sate of Missouri and the Iraqi state of Florida. That is why the News continually reported the failure of Iraqi police to protect and serve Iraqis. The problem now is that there are so many “States” to train, they can not be trained together and classes take a lot of time. So that it will be years before each of these “States” has a State police force to protect them.
    So the problem becomes; Can Iraq survive long enough in this turmoil condition with only Coalition forces filling the gaps? My thought is “No” the News is drumming up bad press and feelings abroad and may cause the coalition forces to be withdrawn too soon. These are just my opinions from what I directly observed.
    There are a ton of other factors that put Iraq down the road they are on and I promised to keep this short.
    Mr. Russell I hope this helped and did not confuse you.
    Cheers,
    Now the Field of Battle is a land of standing corpses;
    Those determined to die will live;
    Those who hope to escape with their lives will die. – Wu Chi

  • Russell

    Lone sailor, Thank you for taking the time to give your opinion. You’re right about the opening a can of worms but, as you say, bad press is not good for our being effective in the Middle East, and any santioning and changing of the Geneva Convention, can’t be a good thing. I really appreciated your thoughts. : )

  • Russell

    I meant to say “sanctioning of torture..”

  • http://quantumphilosophy.net wah

    Joey and Skull,
    I don’t know where you are from, or what made you so dead to the world, or why you have no idea what the Constitution of the United States says or means, but I feel sorry for the both of you.
    I hope someday you have an experience that teaches you what good is, and why it’s worth fighting for.
    I hope you don’t spend so much time fighting the demons in your mind, or become so enamoured with the fear in your heart, that you become the evil that you despise.
    I hope, but I can’t be sure.
    Good luck, mr. internet-tough-guys you. Those of us on side of good pray for your release from your own personal hell.
    The prime directive of Islam is to spread Islam to the four corners of the earth, by any means necessary.
    You don’t even know that which you fear. There are 5 pillars of Islam. None of them is even close to that which you believe. Stop getting your information from people scared stupid, stop being scared stupid, and you might begin to see a path to peace.

  • KOka

    Tooo many letters! Check Russian rules – just 5!
    It is why they always better

  • john

    “The prime directive of Islam is to spread Islam to the four corners of the earth, by any means necessary.”
    You are from Israel, aren’t you?

  • john

    “ungrateful Iraqis”
    LOL!

  • Lone Sailor

    Mr. Russell,
    To discuss your point about FOX News: “…..Studies have shown that people who watch Fox actually know fewer facts about Iraq. News papers are much better or a good magazine, Time, NewsWeek, ect….”
    That actually becomes a complex Paradox, as I am sure you can now imagine. The study implying that Fox News viewers are misinformed on the facts of Iraq could be flawed. What “Facts” about Iraq are they discussing in the study?
    - Was there WMD in Iraq?
    - Are the Iraqi People being mistreated by the US Armed Forces?
    What if the study’s “Correct” answers are wrong? Where did the study get its facts? Who has the correct answer? As I stated before I do not trust the News due to my personal experiences with the News and the truth. But many don’t trust the Military sources, as some people posting to this site have conveyed. Thus the Paradox. :)
    Personal experience has taught me that the truth, in such world wide impacting situations with lots of news coverage, will not come out for about 2 – 5 years after the event. That is about how long it takes for those really there to write a book and the News to not care enough to out shout those telling the truth. That is about how long it took the truth of what really happened at such places as Grenada or to the USS STARK or USS VINCENNES to come out. Nothing really dramatically revealing but defiantly not what the News said was the truth when it happened.
    However, playing the devil’s advocate, there are now false Iraq War books such as “The Last True Story I’ll Ever Tell” by John Crawford. I was at many of the places he claimed to have been when he claimed to have been there. The events he writes about where I was did not happen as he said they did. An Army friend of mine also pointed out an Army element he claims to have been part of, the “108th Airborne”, does not exist. Which again stirs the muddy water of who is telling the truth? What is the Truth? :)
    Cheers,
    If Peace can not be maintained with Honor
    Then it is no Longer Peace

  • http://quantumphilosophy.net Wah

    Lone Sailer.
    The study is here [warning pdf!]
    The three main questions were:
    1) Was Iraq directly involved in 9/11?
    2) Have we found WMD in Iraq?
    3) Did the world, in general, support the invasion of Iraq?
    People who admitted to watching Fox News were most likely to get the questions wrong, and, by far, the most likely to get all three wrong.

  • Lone Sailor

    THANK YOU MARINES for your sacrifice and protection. Semper Fidelis!!
    Mr. Wah,
    Thank You! You have proved my point exactly.
    In the article you attached it states that question two of three was “Were WMD’s found in Iraq?” The study stated the answer was “No”. The correct answer as we now all know is “Yes”. Although the News is quick to point out “We did not find very much WMD.”
    With that said according to the study you sent more Fox News viewers answered “Yes” to the WMD question than the viewers of other News stations or sources. So that means more Fox viewers answered the question correctly.
    Now do you see why I stated what I did about the truth comes out from 2 to 5 years after the event for such major World Wide events?
    Thank you for you for your response.
    Cheers,
    To those who fought for it:
    Freedom has a flavor the protected shall never know.
    From the wall of a bunker at Khe Sanh

  • russell

    Lone sailor: Proof please.

  • http://kewpie.blogspot.com wah

    The correct answer as we now all know is “Yes”. Although the News is quick to point out “We did not find very much WMD.”
    Wow…okay..you’re joking. Funny stuff.
    Just point out some pictures of the nuclear weapons, the 18,000 liters of anthrax, and the super-flu we found…and the mobile weapons labs..and we’ll agree on this one.

  • http://kewpie.blogpsot.com wah

    Also, please point of pictures of the following…
    Second, as with biological weapons, Saddam Hussein has never accounted for vast amounts of chemical weaponry: 550 artillery shells with mustard, 30,000 empty munitions, and enough precursors to increase his stockpile to as much as 500 tons of chemical agents.

    Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical-weapons agent. That is enough agent to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets.

    Pictures of those weapons, please.
    Thanks!

  • kelly

    Russell,
    The Iraqi people are deeply confused, and don’t have a foundation to form a valid opinion concerning their relationship with Americans (or our forces). They desperately want us to leave (as do we), but they’re far more concerned with the element just above survival. They do not want us to pull the plug while they’re working that out.
    All,
    Too much philosophical discussion. The simple fact is; no one serving in the military is a victim of the Iraq war. We asked for this chance to take the fight to an enemy, and we’ve been given the best military and training available to get it done. Believe me, we take that job very seriously, and personally.
    Whatever the Iraq war isn’t, it is this; a drainage point for the forces poised against us. It has provided a critical ground to hold a fight against an enemy that had no ground before. Also, it has served to hold two sworn state enemies of our culture apart (Iran and Syria). Terminate this fight, and we will both disperse the enemy and geographically unite two of our major foes.

  • http://timele.net sanjal

    “Ungrateful iraqis”. LOL
    This is why US troops should be withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan.
    “Russia owns teh Internet!”(c)

  • skull

    WAH,
    Thank you so much for feeling sorry for me and Joey! It makes feel so wonderful that an arrogant little coward would care about me! I care about you, too! In fact, I care so much about you, that I wish you would leave this evil country that you incessantly attack. The war upsets you. The soldiers upset you. The trees and the air upset you. The answer? LEAVE. NOW. Why not go to France, that incredible place of brotherhood and understanding. Just watch out for the young muslim gangs burning cars in gay Paris! You would be a natural in France! You and the other spineless complainers could stand around and call each other names, and if someone wants to fight, you could all run away like chickens in a windstorm! Perhaps you could become a leader in France… there ain’t much a frenchman likes better than to run when danger threatens. Don’t worry, WAH, when your world starts to crumble and the bad guys are closing in, and all your begging and desperate negotiations fail, that evil place, the USA, will come and save you and your new country! Just so you can get back on your soapbox and insult and deride us all over again. You effeminate slime… I pray you haven’t reproduced.

  • Russell

    Since the debating seams to have come to an end, I’m finished with this thread. A few things though, torture is evil, but also stupid for several reasons one of which is its so unreliable. The case of John McCain’s friend who was tortured be the Vietcong should be remembered. He told his captives, who wanted to know the names of his company, the line up for the Green Day Packers. Or another more recent case where Cheney swore the special forces could find WMD as such and such coordinates, only to find they would put them in the middle of lebanon. A little off don’t you think, from Iraq. Then of course we could think about what could happen down the road to our own service men who are subject to “alternative set of procedures,” in another war. The list goes on and could be spelled out better by others but there it is.

  • Lone Sailor

    THANK YOU MARINES! Your sacrifices are not going unnoticed! God Bless and Semper Fi!
    Mr. Wah and Mr. Russell,
    In a side ways sort of way you are both proving the point about truth I spoke to earlier. The same News (CNN) that reported the study attached above also reported that we found Sarin and Mustard gas filled artillery shells.
    Now before you flame spray me about it was a small amount or old or weak. Please understand all Sarin and Mustard gas weapons are considered WMD. I do not make these rules or definitions. Weak and old Sarin gas still hurts and kills and is still WMD.
    So, if the question is: “Was there WMD found in Iraq?” The Answer is Yes. If the question is: “Was WMD used against our troops?” Again the answer is Yes. WMD was used against our troops, on or about 14 – 17 May 2004 an IED of Sarin gas was used against a US convoy.
    Those gentlemen are the facts as given by CNN.
    I would have attached a file like Mr. Wah was able to do but I am NOT computer savvy. Sorry. I am sure if you Google it you can find the News stories.
    Now before either of you get mad or upset as if you were cornered think about this situation for but a moment. If you are asked a yes or no question. The answer can only be Yes or No.
    If the question was: “Did we find a lot of WMD in Iraq?” or “How much MWD did we find in Iraq?” Then an essay answer can be given.
    Now if finding this WMD was not enough then that would beg the question: “How much WMD is too much?”
    Gentlemen, I never said anything about nuclearWMD. I do not know why you asked for pictures of that. WMD basically comes in three flavors, Nuke, Biological or Chemical.
    To sort of put this argument on a liter note. A lawyer once did this to me to get me to calm down when I was wrapped around the axel (Old southern saying to show I was very angry) about my point of view not being understood in an argument. He told me to answer “Yes” or “No” only, then he asked me “Have you quit beating my wife?!” (I was not married at the time, but how can a yes or no answer explain that?)
    Gentlemen, Thank you for keeping this civil. I do enjoy civil discussions. Lowering a discussion to foul language or name calling stops any debate with me.
    You have both demonstrated the First Amendment rights I fought for and some of my friends died for. Thank you both for exercising that right! God Bless you both!
    Cheers,
    If Peace can not be maintained with Honor
    Then it is no Longer Peace

  • Not just yeah, but HELL YEAH!!

    As a Navy man (E-7) ret. I loved your bit. I’ve always respected (chuckle) the marines who were told by their DI’s that they were bullet-proof and bad-asses into the bargain. Just goes to show that what we learned about the Marines from watching them was (and still is) correct. The Navy employes a smart brand of human. Our rules of “gun” fighting are quite simple and enormously effective.
    1) Stay 23 miles out at sea where they can’t see or shoot you and,
    2) Lob a LOT of exploding Chevy’s onto their heads (8-16 inch guns with 1800 lb. shells and all that don’t you know…)
    3) Where’s that damn bosun’s mate with the coffee urn?

  • honeored_dad

    Kelly said it best!!
    I believe that the only major way in which the President has “misled” us is in semi-concealing our critical purpose of putting our forces close enough for instant action w/ Iran.
    A successful Iraq is a fringe benefit to hemming in the Hitler of our age (SH was just a Stalin — horrendously evil, but just selfishly rather than insanely so like Ahmedinejad).
    We have suffered 0.15% deaths per tour, while gaining warzone experience for hundreds of thousands (via 2 million tours) of freedom’s preservers — exactly what is needed for us to have a chance at prevailing against the primary threat.
    As for the 1st Amendment — it’s purpose is to promote the discovery of the truth. Our ultimate heroes have bled for the truth — all the falsehoods spoken by our enemies domestic are no more what’s been sacrificed for than all the crack-pot suicide cults are.
    Lies are just an unfortunate side-effect of freedom, just as accidental/criminal gun deaths are a side effect of the 2nd Amendment. It’s not the giver or preserver of freedom’s fault that others abuse the gift.
    Two great books for all USMC and Navy fans:
    “Baby Jack” by Frank Schaeffer
    “Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors”
    PMD Dave

  • Vilgot The Viking

    Hi!
    I think the “Marine Corps Rules for Gun Fighting” was hillarious! Next year im joining the (Royal Swedish) army, so those were some good facts :)
    What I dont get is the thing with you americans complaining about the Irak war. (The war of terror as Borat says :)) Lets put all the facts aside; didnt Sadam Hussein kill millions of people? Yes alot of people has been killed since the war started, but all and all its a win, right?
    Another thing which confuses me in avarage about american politics, is that there are soo many left people and liberals when you dont even know how it is to live in a country wich has had a socialistik government the past 70years. i know Sweden has never been comunistic, but quite close at times… it sucks
    My spelling sux btw…

  • Loki

    Stuart L. Brogden writes:
    The Commandment, “Thou shalt not kill” is more accurately interpreted, “Thou shalt not murder” – the Hebrew word “ratsach” being operative.
    —————————————————–
    Thank you for pointing this out I was wondering when someone was going to catch onto this little fact that seems to be overlooked a lot. Most christens and other major religions for that matter agree that god is infallibly. This means that there is no way that god could have told the Jews “thou shalt not kill” and then sent them out to completely wipe out cites and towns that opposed them. This would mean that god was contradicting himself which would pretty much negate the whole religion thing. So god must see a difference between killing and murder.
    Anyway I’ll shut up now. Happy Birthday

  • Joshua

    Here is a biblical reminder to those who posted this anti-Christian humor. Christianity does have a different message than Judaism. Thou shalt not kill IS the proper translation. The KJV is not often wrong.:
    Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
    Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
    Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
    Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
    Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
    Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
    Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
    Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

  • honored_dad

    The KJV may not often be wrong (sorry to all the women and others over the centuries who were executed for perceived witchery, when the famous passage “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” was a mistranslation of the original “thou shalt not suffer a MURDERER to live” — OOPS!!), but it is often abused by faulty misreadings.
    If you think the 6th commandment is really “thou shalt not kill” w/ no explaination needed for the term, then I guess you expect to need a lot of Grace for all the killing (of microbes on up thru things w/ faces) your very existence requires.
    It’s a good thing that such erroneous personal interpretations of the scriptures are not as likely to lead directly to violence by Christians as is the case in “the religion of peace”. Treasonous though for how it can undermine the preservation of freedom. The depravity of our modern society’s tolerance for the worst crimes is a partnership of the ignorant, the evil, and the self-righteous.
    For all the transformative wisdom that Jesus shared, He never said that all killing was wrong. He seems to have recommended that pedophiles should receive worse than a terminal session of water-boarding.
    I dare say God prefers the Marines over many a self-styled Biblical authority — there’s just something about the willingness to die for strangers.
    PMD Dave

  • shred

    thankyou

  • http://f44.aaa.livedoor.jp/~sagadev/saga4wiki/pukiwiki.php?plugin=attach&pcmd=open&file=061227-1-30.html&refer=FrontPage Freddie Ceja

    The Rolling Stones cancel a gig in Hawaii and postpone other tour dates as Mick Jagger suffers throat troubles…