Our Polygamous Future:
The Social Acceptance of Plural Marriage
Culture — By Joe Carter on December 7, 2006 at 12:38 am In an interview on the science in science fiction, novelist William Gibson noted, “[T]he future is already here. It’s just not evenly distributed yet.” What Gibson meant was that the innovations in science fiction could already be found–at least in embryonic form–in our current ideas or technology. Much the same could be said about future societal and legal norms on marriage – they are already here, they’re just not evenly distributed yet.
A prime example is the social and legal acceptance of polygamous marriage. The legal bulwark against polygamy was the first to go, being dismantled by the Supreme Court ruling Lawrence v. Texas. “Liberty presumes an autonomy of self,” claimed Justice Anthony Kennedy, “that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct.”
As Justice Scalia recognized, the decision could be used to legalize bigamy and would be a “massive disruption of the current social order.” Several weeks ago the Washington Post ran a front page story titled, “Polygamists Fight to Be Seen As Part of Mainstream Society” that showed Scalia was prophetic:
Valerie and others among the estimated 40,000 men, women and children in polygamous communities are part of a new movement to decriminalize bigamy. Consciously taking tactics from the gay-rights movement, polygamists have reframed their struggle, choosing in interviews to de-emphasize their religious beliefs and focus on their desire to live “in freedom,” according to Anne Wilde, director of community relations for Principle Voices, a pro-polygamy group based in Salt Lake.
In their quest to decriminalize bigamy, practitioners have had help from unlikely quarters. HBO’s series “Big Love,” about a Viagra-popping man with three wives, three sets of bills, three sets of chores and three sets of kids, marked a watershed because of its sympathetic portrayal of polygamists. The U.S. Supreme Court’s 2003 decision in Lawrence v. Texas, which voided laws criminalizing sodomy, also aided polygamy’s cause because it implied that the court disapproved of laws that reach into the bedroom.
One man’s slippery slope is another’s ladder of progress. Homosexual activists needed over thirty years to go from Stonewall to Goodridge. But they have paved a clearer path for polygamists. And, unlike gay marriage, polygamy already has a long-standing cultural precedent. All of the major world religions – Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity – have condoned the practice of taking multiple spouses.
The same holds true for most every culture on earth. Out of 1170 societies recorded in Murdock’s Ethnographic Atlas, polygyny (the practice of men having more than one wife) is prevalent in 850. Even our own culture, which has an astoundingly high divorce and remarriage rate, practices a form of “serial polygamy.”
When the facts are taken into account, the reasons for favoring gay marriage while excluding polygamy are completely arbitrary and based on personal preference. If you truly believe that homosexuals have a legal right to marry someone of the same gender then you have no grounds for barring polyamorous groups from doing the same. If a man can marry another man why should he be barred from marrying two or three or four men if he chooses?
I’ve yet to hear an advocate for the redefinition of marriage who can provide a coherent, much less convincing, argument for why we should accept the one while rejecting the other. I would even go so far as to say that such an argument cannot be made. Unfortunately, the recognition of this fact will not lead to less acceptance of same-sex marriage. Instead it will be viewed as an unfortunate but necessary tradeoff.
As Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University, makes in his eloquent case for the legalization of polygamy:
When the high court struck down anti-sodomy laws in Lawrence vs. Texas, we ended decades of the use of criminal laws to persecute gays. However, this recent change was brought about in part by the greater acceptance of gay men and lesbians into society, including openly gay politicians and popular TV characters.
Such a day of social acceptance will never come for polygamists. It is unlikely that any network is going to air The Polygamist Eye for the Monogamist Guy or add a polygamist twist to Everyone Loves Raymond. No matter. The rights of polygamists should not be based on popularity, but principle.
Turley is far too morose in his assessment. The social acceptance of polygamy is already here (see: Big Love), it’s just not evenly distributed throughout society. At least not yet.
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Gordon has returned, although with a new handle. Unfortunately he has not changed his pattern of ignoring everyone else’s arguments and posting his own as if we haven’t been through them before. To summarize his arguments and their faults:
1. Civilization should restain “our impulses and appetites.”
True, civilization does and should do this. Without such restraint nothing would ever get accomplished and people would prey on each other. However this has nothing to do with gay marriage. If Gordon’s objection is that gay promiscuous sex should be retrained then marriage is a good tool for that since it raises the cost of being promiscuous…as it does for hetrosexuals.
It doesn’t raise it in such a tyrannical way that it never happens. People do have affairs, sleep around etc. It almost certainly does, though, put a break on it and contains it. It may very well turn out that only a small portion of gay swill utilize marriage. In that case the impact would be one of the status quo.
2. The chldren shouldn’t see such things; “Further tot his, the reason for a family-friendly public space in the community is to further protect the young from undue influences and possible harm while providing for them the appropriate measure of stimulation and encouragement to explore a relatively safe space”
Again this has nothing to do with gay marriage. If gay couples are ‘in the street’ then they may indeed be seen by children just as children may see hetrosexual couples in public. There are public decency laws just about everywhere that children with responsible parents might be. If a community had a problem with children in a public park seeing hetrosexual couples engaged in intimate activity would abolishing hetrosexual marriage be a sensible proposal? I doubt it.
Boonton: “Gordon has returned, although with a new handle.” You make that sound so sinister. It’s sure not like he tried to hide his identity. Look at the end of his post. It’s how he always signs off his posts.
Gordon presented what I would consider a fresh perspective on the issue, and far from ignoring the previous thread was responding to points raised earlier.
Gordon’s point, and one which anyone who views the Bible as authoritatively God’s Word would share, is that homosexuality is, like all sin, corrosive and destructive to the individuals who engage in it and to the society in which they live. Therefore it is in society’s interest as well as the interests of individuals, that homosexuality not be encouraged or sanctioned. {Hope I’m not talking out of turn to compress Gordon’s argument that much and still try to attribute it to him.}
tle: “She in fact is very proud of the fact that SHE picked me out.” Oh. My. Goodness. The needle on my weird meter just slammed into the peg on the right side of the dial so hard it snapped into three pieces. You owe me a new weird meter.
Hopefully you will never have children with this man. Even if everything is all sweetness and light with one man with one breeder and one worker as you say it is, just introduce the children of two women into the mix and watch the love…
“I do have my suspicions on why you would assume the worst…” I think we could chalk it all up to having to listened to the song “Tryin’ to Love Two Women Is Like a Ball and Chain” too many times.
“Not to mention of course the fact that as I did already state, the state should not be involved in dictating policy based on ANY religion.” As per my earlier point, QED. Sorry, but people who go to church and have social views based on their church’s teachings have just as much right to advocate for those views to be adopted as public policy as someone who does not explicitly ascribe religious underpinnings to their views. Your views are just as much the product of your worldview as are mine. To rule out laws which appear to be too similar to the teachings of any church results in a tyranny of the relativists over people of faith.
I believe in liberty and personal responsibility. No one here has shown any way in which same sex marriage or plural marriage harms anyone. All I see from the “anti” side are declarative statements about “they are bad/immoral” with no rationale for that position.
but I suspect that in real life most people would find themselves unable to meet such a difficult challenge which is why I don’t think polygamy has a serious future in developed cultures.
you’d be surprised at the number of people this kind of lifestyle DOES work for. You’re assuming again and it isn’t helping your arguments. :-)
I don’t think the writers created extra drama. The personalities of the women nor even their husband are not at all that unusual.
The individual personalities aren’t unusual… and no, should those personalities come into play in real life, there’d be plenty of drama. HOWEVER, the fact that all those personalities WERE written into the same family WAS done specifically to get those dramatic results. On top of that, when people don’t really want others around, it creates friction. This is why it is annoying to me when people assume that my boyfriend’s wife doesn’t want me around. Disregarding other people’s feelings in poly relationships and doing your own thing irregardless … well, honestly the only other thing I think it is akin to is cheating… which…hmmm… i believe is running rampant among monogamous relationships, isn’t it? ;-)
Now your answer is ‘whatever the contract for marriage says’. It sounds like your vision is where people would draw up their own customized contracts and go from there. That world is mostly a reality today, one can if they are willing to do the hard work approximate what they want in customized contracts, wills etc.
That is exactly what I meant it to sound like. And yes, I understand the extra work involved. It’s not news to me that to have a multipartner marriage would involve a hell of an “interesting” contract to say the least. Again, extra work? Sorry… but that’s hardly a deterent.
Gordon’s point, and one which anyone who views the Bible as authoritatively God’s Word would share, is that homosexuality is, like all sin, corrosive and destructive to the individuals who engage in it and to the society in which they live. Therefore it is in society’s interest as well as the interests of individuals, that homosexuality not be encouraged or sanctioned.
So just like you don’t wnat to live under what I believe, don’t you get that I don’t want to live under what you believe … a system that randomly uses a book written lifetimes ago, by men.. rewritten by other men… that arbitrarily selects targets for bigotry? THAT is why the separation of church and state is in existence! We are a democracy and a republic… not a theocracy. Freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion. You don’t want my religious beliefs made into laws anymore than I want yours into laws (although mine wouldn’t harm your way of life … can’t say the same for what your beliefs do to others).
Hopefully you will never have children with this man. Even if everything is all sweetness and light with one man with one breeder and one worker as you say it is, just introduce the children of two women into the mix and watch the love…
What I do or don’t do is frankly none of your business and while the weird meter comment made me laugh, this one crossed a line and kind of irked me. Why would you automatically assume that if I had children with my boyfriend the relationship within the family would disintegrate? IF that were an agreed upon course of action within the family, where’s the problem you foresee?
Many people seem to equate poly relationships with troubled relationships. It amazes me as well that when a poly relationship HAS trouble or even ends, it is ALWAYS the fault of the poly model. However, when 50% of monogamous marriages are ending in this country, no one sits up and says “see! Monogamy is bad”. Now… why is that?? Anyone???
“… a system that randomly uses a book written lifetimes ago, by men.. rewritten by other men… that arbitrarily selects targets for bigotry?” It is certainly your right to characterize the belief system of Christians in this way. It is also our right to view that characterization as totally baseless and displaying an ignorance of what we believe. And, of course, the obligatory use of the word theocracy was just icing on the cake. Well done!
“the weird meter comment made me laugh…” I’m glad it was received in the spirit in which it was intended. It would be dreadfully boring exchanging views here if I was the only one having any fun.
“Why would you automatically assume that if I had children with my boyfriend the relationship within the family would disintegrate?” Sorry, when I hit the query key in my brain with this question the amount of data retrieved overloaded the hard drive and caused my head to explode. So rather than fill thirty DVD’s with all the data, I’ll try to summarize. When two women have children by the same man, and especially if they all live under one roof, there’s a little green-eyed monster who enters the scene named jealousy. And it doesn’t need to have its way with both women to poison the atmosphere–only one. Heck, even with children from just one woman I cannot possibly treat my children identically. Somehow, the inability to treat children identically in a case like this leads to someone feeling like “their” child(ren) is (are) getting the short end of the stick. From that point the “mother bear” instinct takes over. (There are ample examples of this when people engage in serial polygamy and attempt to create “blended families.”)
“However, when 50% of monogamous marriages are ending in this country, no one sits up and says “see! Monogamy is bad”. Now… why is that?? Anyone???” Far and away the leading proximate cause of marital dissolution is poor money management skills. Other big problems are disagreements over how to raise the children, lack of spiritual unity, and, hold onto your hats, polyamory. That’s right, the lack of commitment going into the marriage of both parties to be and remain faithful to each other encourages them to seek solace in the arms of a new paramour when the going gets tough with the one they pledged themselves to.
This brings on a point I had not thought of before. I can see the advantage for your boyfriend of having two women, even if the pleasure sometimes ain’t worth the pain. (Sorry, channeling that song again.) When emotional rifts open up between him and one of the “wives” he can seek solace in the arms of the other. While that keeps him perpetually secure and free from utter loneliness and despair, I would imagine it would be pretty tough on the girl who happens to be on the outs at the moment. I’m sure if I were in that situation I would have less incentive to try to understand my wife’s point of view, compromise, and yes, even change myself to meet her needs. After all, there’s another woman there who only has to be a little more accomodating of my being a jerk and the other one is out in the cold.
If the breeder wife does not work outside the home and is the one who is on the outside looking in she needs to just suck it up or be thrust out into a situation where she has no job, no house, and no husband. If the working, childless girlfriend is the one on the outs, she needs to suck it up or she can be pretty easily tossed aside by the couple that can decide maybe monogamy ain’t so bad after all.
All in all I see the advantage for the guy, but the advantage for the chicks really eludes me.
When two women have children by the same man, and especially if they all live under one roof, there’s a little green-eyed monster who enters the scene named jealousy.
Ok, I must admit that I’ve been kind of waiting for someone to toss out the jealousy word.
Jealousy, folks, is nothing more than an emotion. It’s interesting that people talk about other emotions and are ok saying “I’m angry” or “I’m happy”, but heaven forbid they say “I’m jealous” and really look at why. Jealousy isn’t something that can’t be dealt with. There ARE reasons why someone gets jealous… in my case, I get jealous due to insecurities I have. Once those insecurities are dealt with, so is the jealousy. There are amazing articles on jealousy and dealing with jealousy in a multipartner relationship.
So in light of that, while jealousy MAY enter the scene, there is no reason that we have to give our whole lives over to this emotion… any more than we have to give our whole lives over to anger or depression. I am NOT saying it isn’t work… and that work has to be done between ALL people in the relationship. I need my insecurities dealt with by me… my boyfriend AND his wife. And they are happy to help me as much as I am happy to help them. Isn’t that what a relationship SHOULD be?
Heck, even with children from just one woman I cannot possibly treat my children identically.
No one is saying that both women should be treated identically. They are, after all, individuals. but if a person has the capacity to love more than one child, why not more than one partner? They aren’t interchangeable any more than children. They have their own emotions and insecurities… just like children. Each one is unique and special, and all can have the love you can give them.
Far and away the leading proximate cause of marital dissolution is poor money management skills.
This is not special to mono or poly relationships. However, I find it funny that you mention this simply because as a poly family, we are in a BETTER place financially… because we have 2 incomes, no need for paid child care, and only 1 set of bills. :-)
Other big problems are disagreements over how to raise the children, lack of spiritual unity, and, hold onto your hats, polyamory. That’s right, the lack of commitment going into the marriage of both parties to be and remain faithful to each other encourages them to seek solace in the arms of a new paramour when the going gets tough with the one they pledged themselves to.
First of all, polyamory is ethical non-monogamy. Which means that ALL parties involved know what’s going on AND AGREE TO IT. Polyamory is not cheating. Cheating involves lying and deception. Polyamory involves neither. I fail to understand how one can enter a poly arrangement and be “unfaithful” at the same time. Faithful means being true to your promise and vows. If that promise includes by way of mutual understanding AND AGREEMENT the ability to love others, how is that not faithful? No… what your argument should say is “cheating” … not polyamory… is a leading cause of marital discord.
All in all I see the advantage for the guy, but the advantage for the chicks really eludes me.
I can understand in this male dominated, monogamy based, “Love is finite” thinking society how you could come to those conclusions. But it really doesn’t work that way. The foundation of polyamorous relationships like the one I’m involved in is honest, open and frank communication, love and trust. It just doesnt’ work how you’ve described. We are a FAMILY. We enjoy each others’ love, support, companionship, intellectual discussions, spirituality, and humor. Despite what so many would like to believe it is (to quote the tagline of the Polyamory Weekly podcast) NOT all about the sex. no one is having to “suck it up” against their wishes.
“There ARE reasons why someone gets jealous… in my case, I get jealous due to insecurities I have.”
I guess I would have insecurities too if I was in your position. If you were in an equitable polyamorous situation under current law, the guy would be legally married to neither of you. As is, and using your own words, you have a “boyfriend;” she has a “husband.” Now this may be one of your main arguments for why the state should sanction your sleeping arrangements, but that would miss the point of why you have insecurities. You are in a very unequitable and insecure position.
“So in light of that, while jealousy MAY enter the scene, there is no reason that we have to give our whole lives over to this emotion…”
True, and yet, in real life that is just what happens pretty much all of the time.
“First of all, polyamory is ethical non-monogamy.” Wrong.
“The foundation of polyamorous relationships like the one I’m involved in is honest, open and frank communication, love and trust.”…for as long as it lasts.
“…the Polyamory Weekly podcast…”
Why does it not surprise me that such a thing exists?
*sigh* Wow… did you miss my points.
I guess I would have insecurities too if I was in your position. If you were in an equitable polyamorous situation under current law, the guy would be legally married to neither of you. As is, and using your own words, you have a “boyfriend;” she has a “husband.” Now this may be one of your main arguments for why the state should sanction your sleeping arrangements, but that would miss the point of why you have insecurities. You are in a very unequitable and insecure position.
I have insecurities due to a LOT of things that have happened in my 37+ years on this planet, thankyouverymuch. It took a long time for me to put them all together… it’s not like the year that I’ve been in this relationship is going to wash them away like magic. Fact of the matter is that I feel MORE secure, MORE loved and all around BETTER about this relationship than I have ANY prior relationship. Please stop trying to tell me how I feel, how I should feel or why I feel the way I do. I know why I feel things and I know what alleviates my worry. I really don’t need an internet shrink, thanks all the same.
You focused your entire argument on me, and while I don’t mind being a guinea pig (I did jump into this conversation afterall), you completely missed my point that EVERYONE may have jealous moments… but the fact is that jealousy is not the end-all be all of emotions. There are ways to deal with it and it doesn’t have to end a relationship as some may think it does.
“First of all, polyamory is ethical non-monogamy.” Wrong.
I’d really love to hear YOUR definition of it since you seem to know so much. I think “ethical non-monogamy” pretty much does fit.
Ethical: Being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice
Non-monogamy: well, I couldn’t find it in the dictionary but if we break it apart we see that Non means “not; other than; reverse of; absence of;” and monogamy is the practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time….
So exactly what is “WRONG” with defining polyamory as ethical non-monogamy?
From Wikipedia:
Polyamory is the practice or lifestyle of being open to having more than one loving, intimate relationship at a time, with the full knowledge and consent of all partners involved. The word is often used more broadly to refer to relationships that are not sexually exclusive, but there is disagreement on how broadly it applies (for example, many people contend that swinging is not polyamory). Persons who consider themselves open to or emotionally suited for such relationships may define themselves as polyamorous, often abbreviated to poly.
“The foundation of polyamorous relationships like the one I’m involved in is honest, open and frank communication, love and trust.”…for as long as it lasts.
and in a country where the divorce rate among supposidly monogamous marriages (don’t forget all the CHEATING going on) is approximately 50%, is that comment supposed to mean something directly related to poly relationships? Because it doesn’t. Again, when a poly reltionship fails everyone is so quick to blame it on polyamory. But when so many monogamous relationships fail, why is monogamy off the hook? Any relationship is “for as long as it lasts”.
one more thing….
As for the equitable arrangment comment… they’ve been married for 13 years and were together for 2 before that. They were high school sweethearts. There is no way to compete with that and that may be your point. **MY** point is that I don’t need to compete. And honestly, other than financial, etc. benefits that should be available to ALL or NONE, I don’t give a rats ass what the state does or thinks (or anyone else for that matter). I know what my relationship is … and it’s HARDLY unequitable. This is a competition or a contest (and this from someone who is VERY competitive at everything). This is a relationship and a family.
Sorry… this ISN’T a competition or contest. too many windows open here at work and too much going on. :-)
“*sigh* Wow… did you miss my points.”
Au contraire. Just because I find the interesting points in your writing to be admittedly tangential to the direction you would like to take the discussion doesn’t mean that I don’t understand what you are trying to say. If it helps any I will own up to deliberately not allowing you to frame our back-and-forth in the terms I think you would like. And, as an aside, I will say that for someone with whom I so totally disagree, I find it quite enjoyable engaging in this back and forth. You do not quickly resort to invective and do actually respond to things.
“I have insecurities due to a LOT of things that have happened in my 37+ years on this planet, thankyouverymuch. It took a long time for me to put them all together… it’s not like the year that I’ve been in this relationship is going to wash them away like magic. Fact of the matter is that I feel MORE secure, MORE loved and all around BETTER about this relationship than I have ANY prior relationship.”
Hard as you may find this to believe coming from me, I really do empathize with what you have written here, and I am glad for you that you presently feel all of the things you say here. However that empathy which allows me to be happy for you also evokes sadness for the children in this situation (you may disagree with why I feel that way, as we have already covered, but the motivation is still empathy for those children, however misguided it may be in your estimation). It also saddens me to report that I believe that the happiness you are now experiencing is based upon (willful) blindness to the real nature of the situation in which you find yourself and, should everyone still be alive in a few years, will end with everyone involved experiencing much more pain and insecurity afterward than before.
“You focused your entire argument on me, and while I don’t mind being a guinea pig…” Ummm…yeah. Other than some really whacked out Mormon splinter groups in SW Utah, you are the only one I have every been aware of.
“I’d really love to hear YOUR definition of it since you seem to know so much. I think “ethical non-monogamy” pretty much does fit.
Ethical: Being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice.”
My definition, informed by the fact that I accept the Bible as the authoritative Word of God is that God’s ideal for marriage is one man and one woman together in a mutually monogamous, lifelong relationship. Any arrangement other than this is something other than God’s best, and is, ipso facto, LESS than God’s best.
Now, I have an issue with your question-begging definition of ethical. What precisely are “the rules or standards for right conduct?” Where are they codified? Who codified them? Where is the court of appeal for them?
“and in a country where the divorce rate among supposidly monogamous marriages (don’t forget all the CHEATING going on) is approximately 50%, is that comment supposed to mean something directly related to poly relationships?”
Hold it right there. Before we just accept without qualification the 50% statistic I want to issue a few caveats. The statistics I am familiar with show something more like less than 40% of first marriages fail; something like 65% of second marriages fail. And subsequent marriages fail at something like a 90% rate. This means that nowhere near half of people who marry for the first time will end up divorced.
Another statistic which I cannot point immediately to the internet attribution for is one that was explained to my wife and I on our wedding day by the pastor who married us. The rate of divorce among professing Christians pretty much mirrors the population at large. However, among couples in which both are professing Christians, who attend the same church together at least once a week, and spend daily time reading the Bible together and praying the divorce rate is one in about 1,600.
“As for the equitable arrangment comment… they’ve been married for 13 years and were together for 2 before that. They were high school sweethearts. There is no way to compete with that and that may be your point.” Yup. And it gives me no pleasure to say that chances of this lasting beyond the five-to-seven year window in which infatuation burns off and reality without the hormones kicks in are not good even if there were a state sanctioned bond and children of your own involved. Chances of the three of you enjoying a happy life together in your 80’s (as my family is having the joy of watching in the case of my parents) are pretty much nil, even if you all live another 60 years. (I recognize that these statements are forward-looking and I am unaware of any statistical data on how long polys hang together if they aren’t Mormon or Mohammedan. So you can disregard my projections at will. You will not, however, be able to disregard reality when it runs you over like a truck.)
And, as an aside, I will say that for someone with whom I so totally disagree, I find it quite enjoyable engaging in this back and forth. You do not quickly resort to invective and do actually respond to things.
Aside from a couple comments that are a bit inflammatory, I would have to agree with this comment. Nice to see someone who can at least think about what is being said.
However that empathy which allows me to be happy for you also evokes sadness for the children in this situation (you may disagree with why I feel that way, as we have already covered, but the motivation is still empathy for those children, however misguided it may be in your estimation).
We have already covered this, but once again… there should be no sadness for the children. They are marvelous and happy. Perhaps think of it like this… aside from sexual intimacy which I believe should remain between adults of course, what is the difference between this situation and one that involves extended family — an aunt? A grandmother? Or even those that involve a live-in nanny? I’m obviously speaking of practical matters as well as those emotional ones. The children are loved, have a stable homelife, have adults around them to go to and who help them to grow… what more would you ask for children?
It also saddens me to report that I believe that the happiness you are now experiencing is based upon (willful) blindness to the real nature of the situation in which you find yourself and, should everyone still be alive in a few years, will end with everyone involved experiencing much more pain and insecurity afterward than before.
Such may be your belief… your opinion.. and you are entitled to it. You’re probably not surprised that you’re not the first who has said such things to me. And I would be a fool to bet that you will be the last. That doesn’t mean that you are right. :) And you don’t know me, so to claim that I am in this relationships with willful blindness is a tad presumptuous. Thank you for your concern, but I do believe this can last. There are other such relationships I know of that have lasted… as long if not longer than many monogamous relationships I know. It IS harder, but that certainly doesn’t mean it isn’t worth the extra work or that it ONLY end in disaster.
My definition, informed by the fact that I accept the Bible as the authoritative Word of God is that God’s ideal for marriage is one man and one woman together in a mutually monogamous, lifelong relationship. Any arrangement other than this is something other than God’s best, and is, ipso facto, LESS than God’s best.
See… this is where we differ and probably always will. By YOUR definition, I can see where you would have a problem with poly relationships. What this doesn’t answer though (Unless I’m completely brain-fried and have missed it) is why “ethical non-monogamy” is “Wrong” as a definition for Polyamory. Is it the “ethical” part that you have a problem with? For monogamy I can understand where you would, but when paired with NON-monogamy as a defintion for Polyamory (that practice of loving more than 1 person — Poly = more, amore = love), I’m still confused.
the fact is that when it comes down to it, our perception of god and what that perception allows of us in this life is where we will not agree. I saw this post because of a google alert on Polyamory… not because I surf evangelical sites. :-) That said, how do you account for the several instances of polygamy show in the bible? Still god’s intent?
Now, I have an issue with your question-begging definition of ethical. What precisely are “the rules or standards for right conduct?” Where are they codified? Who codified them? Where is the court of appeal for them?
IMHO (and I can only speak for me… the previous definitions were from Dictionary.com), the rules and standards of right conduct are defined by those involved in whatever situation… for the most part. If this is to involve a religious standpoint, that’s fine… but all parties must agree. For me, I do have a splash of religious belief thrown in on what I believe is right and what standards of conduct I follow. But that doestn’ mean I need to have them carved into stone tablets and delivered on a mountaintop. ;) As for a court of appeal… if everyone agrees (and we’re talking within the context of our discussion), why woudl there need to be a court of appeals? What is to appeal if everyone agrees?
This means that nowhere near half of people who marry for the first time will end up divorced.
A very quick google for divorce rates showed the following:
“The National Center for Health Statistics recently released a report which found that 43
percent of first marriages end in separation or divorce within 15 years. The study is based on
the National Survey of Family Growth, a nationally representative sample of women age 15 to
44 in 1995.”
“Data in the Census report were collected from both men and women, age 15 and over, and a different methodology was used than in the NCHS report. About 50% of first marriages for men under age 45 may end in divorce, and between 44 and 52% of women’s first marriages may end in divorce for these age groups. ”
Regardless of this… 40% is hardly “nowhere near” the 50% figure I quoted earlier.
However, among couples in which both are professing Christians, who attend the same church together at least once a week, and spend daily time reading the Bible together and praying the divorce rate is one in about 1,600
Believe it or not, this figure does not surprise me in the least and for our discussion purposes I have no problem holding this as an approximate truth. As you mentioned, spiritual aspects and the co-existence of those within a relationship is very important to the longevity of said relationship. So on top of some pretty well-versed stereotypes about Biblical oppression of married couples within some denominations, the fact that both parties agree on this important topic would lead to a lower divorce rate.
this does beg teh question however of how much the statistics can really tell us. the 1599 couples who do not divorce… what problems within their marriages exist? If their faith allowed for an “easier” divorce (ie: no threats on their post-life well being, no ostracization) would they have ended it?
I’m the last to believe in an “easy out”. Maybe that leads to my belief that people SHOULD be allowed to solidify their relationships if they so choose. My parents have been married for 42 years this march. My grandparents were all married until their deaths. Again… no easy outs here. But I believe that while divorce and the nastiness that often ensues as a result is a horrible thing… sometimes, getting out is actually the best thing. I personally would have much rather grown up in a house of divorce than where parents were together ONLY because of the kids or whatnot and were unhappy. What kind of model is that for the kids? What kind of relationship precidence does that set for them? what kind of role models?
Chances of the three of you enjoying a happy life together in your 80’s (as my family is having the joy of watching in the case of my parents) are pretty much nil, even if you all live another 60 years. (I recognize that these statements are forward-looking and I am unaware of any statistical data on how long polys hang together if they aren’t Mormon or Mohammedan. So you can disregard my projections at will. You will not, however, be able to disregard reality when it runs you over like a truck.)
There are situations of poly relationships lasting a lot longer than the 5 years or so that you predict. I know of several I speak with on a regular basis who are already to and well beyond that point. However, there are few statistics to form any kind of opinion. Probably because this kind of relationship is very socially unaccepted. There are people in poly relationships that have to keep it a secret from teh world for fear of their jobs, their homes and custody of their children…. all because people depend on things like the Bible for their direction and subsequently dictate that morality to everyone else. I often wonder if poly would work even better for more people if it were socially acceptable to do so — if people didn’t have to spend so much time dealing with outside perceptions and could spend that energy on the relationship itself. Poly is hard… not just because of the relationship complexity but becasue you also have to deal with so many nay-sayers. Just because it isn’t for you, doesn’t mean it won’t work for someone else. The problem is one of tolerance. We’re not hurting each other and we’re not hurting you… so what is wrong with that? Relationships run their course and end every day. Should that be the case of this one, life will go on. However, I love the challenge you have put forth. I do think you are wrong in your assumptions, wrong in your belief of what a poly relationship is and can be, and dead wrong in your prediction of the happiness of me and my family.
“Perhaps think of it like this… aside from sexual intimacy which I believe should remain between adults of course, what is the difference between this situation and one that involves extended family — an aunt? A grandmother? Or even those that involve a live-in nanny?”
Of course sexual intercourse should happen out of view of the kiddies, however it is impossible to hermetically seal off the sexual and intimate aspects of adult interactions from view of the children. Nor is it desirable. Children learn what a healthy adult relationship looks like by observing their parents’ marriage. (Or perhaps they learn what a horrible example looks like and go on to model that.) In our family we have experience with two of the examples cited: my wife was a nanny as a young woman, her grandmother lived with them as a child, and my parents are about to move in with us. I can assure you that the interactions between adults in these situations are far different than those between sexually active adults. I for one want to model for my boys that a good man courts and marries one woman and makes his lifelong passion the relentless pursuit of understanding that one woman and loving her alone for a lifetime. Jesus Himself emphasized the marriage relationship as being the two becoming one flesh, and says that what God has joined together no man should put asunder.
“Thank you for your concern, but I do believe this can last.” Well, we’ll see. Or at least you will see. What more can I say?
“What this doesn’t answer though (Unless I’m completely brain-fried and have missed it) is why “ethical non-monogamy” is “Wrong” as a definition for Polyamory.”
I reject this definition as wrong because in the ethical system which defines my beliefs (the Bible) “ethical” and “non-monogamy” are an oxymoron. It would be like talking about dry water.
“the fact is that when it comes down to it, our perception of god and what that perception allows of us in this life is where we will not agree.”
I agree. In the country in which we live I ought to advocate for the things which I believe will result in the greatest good for everyone in our country, and you should do the same. Under the best of circumstances we can even discuss our differences politely and constructively, and even if we don’t change each other’s minds, one or the other can perhaps persuade others to his cause.
“IMHO (and I can only speak for me… the previous definitions were from Dictionary.com), the rules and standards of right conduct are defined by those involved in whatever situation… for the most part.”
Here is another place we part company. I believe that relativistic ethics are a recipe for chaos and much harm to many people. You believe (apparently) that an absolute moral code attributed to God-inspired revelation is suffocating and arbitrary. One of us is right here and one is wrong. It would be silly for me to go on to say who I think is right.
“The National Center for Health Statistics recently released a report which found that 43
percent of first marriages end in separation or divorce within 15 years. The study is based on
the National Survey of Family Growth, a nationally representative sample of women age 15 to
44 in 1995.”"
That’s close enough to the statistics I remember for my tastes. Anyway, monogamous marriage appeals to many who are equipped to handle it and also to many who aren’t. The solution is to better equip young people for marriage, not to dump the template. After all, look at the generations that preceeded you in your own family. Not all that many years ago the vast majority of Americans entered marriage for life. The model works, but it is not effectively applied many times today.
“I personally would have much rather grown up in a house of divorce than where parents were together ONLY because of the kids or whatnot and were unhappy. What kind of model is that for the kids? What kind of relationship precidence does that set for them? what kind of role models?”
I won’t paste the link for fear of triggering the spam filter, but go to strongerfamilies . com and search the site for “does divorce make people happy.” Two-thirds of people who report an unhappy marriage but stay together report being happily married five years later. The myth that once a marriage is unhappy it will always be unhappy causes a lot of misery for a lot of adults and their children.
Missed this one before: “That said, how do you account for the several instances of polygamy show in the bible? Still god’s intent?”
The Bible is clear on God’s ideal: one man and one woman together for life in a mutually monogamous and loving relationship. (For references on this summary statement read Genesis 2; Mark 10; and Ephesians 5.) The Bible records the lives of the people it discusses realistically–warts and all. The only sinless human who has ever lived is Jesus. So yes, the Bible records instances of polygamy, adultery, murder, theft, lying, cheating, coveting and all sorts of calumny among those who still found favor in God’s eyes. Just because these people did these things does not mean God approved of them; just like I believe that God sees me as His redeemed child by the merits of Christ’s death for me even though I often do many things that dishonor God and are not His will for me.
“Should that be the case of this one, life will go on.”
Regardless of the outcome, life will go on, won’t it? Sadly though (and I mean this sincerely), it will go on with probably one more wrecked marriage, one more broken man, two more broken women, several more broken children, and for you personally I fear it will last just long enough that when it does go south you will be old enough that the chance for a truly stable and secure home for you and the children you might otherwise have will have slipped away.
One thing that has always puzzled me about young women who will go into shack-up relationships (i.e. no committment as expressed in marriage) is that they do not use the years when they are attractive and desirable to men of their own generation to try to build a lasting and committed relationship (once again with the M-word) which will see them through a lifetime. I’m not trying to be insulting here; this really has always been inexplicable to me. The reverse situation is not a puzzle at all. Most men in these situations believe (some correctly and some not) that when they tire of the old girlfriend they can always get a new one. That is why the “trade the 40-year old in for two 20’s” jokes about men elicit a laugh–there is some truth to them. The reverse almost never happens.
I know you don’t care to have me be your internet shrink, but I would urge you to take some time alone to really examine your life and see if the insecurities you have alluded to and perhaps some self-esteem issues have brought you to the place where you are disrespecting youself by being the insecure girlfriend of a bigamist rather than a confident and independent woman who either can face life alone or can form a healthy, mutually monogamous marriage with a healthy man. {In rereading what I have just written I’m sure that this is something to which you could take great umbrage. Please let me assure you I do not mean it to be inflammatory or insulting.}
Of course sexual intercourse should happen out of view of the kiddies, however it is impossible to hermetically seal off the sexual and intimate aspects of adult interactions from view of the children. Nor is it desirable.
Indeed this is true so what is the problem? I don’t think adults should be having sex right in front of the kids but that’s not what anyone is talking about anyway. As I pointed out gay marriages do not produce children and if you’re talking about adoption then you are talking about a situation where the hetrosexual couple de facto failed to live up to the ideal you are talking about (either due to their own fault or for reasons beyond their control such as in the case of orphans).
This is going to be long and I’m really going to try to remain calm… but you did push a few buttons rather hard.
Children learn what a healthy adult relationship looks like by observing their parents’ marriage. (Or perhaps they learn what a horrible example looks like and go on to model that.)
Exactly! So what is wrong with having a role model that teaches love, acceptance, tolerance, finding your own path and standing on your own feet, fighting for what you believe in and (had to say it a second time) love… because THAT is what our kids are learning. The standard Christian approach may teach love for another, but I think enough of the responses here (not just you but others) have also shown Intolerance, NON-acceptance for those who believe differently… And yet you claim that is the “best” model (read: “only good & true”)
I for one want to model for my boys that a good man courts and marries one woman and makes his lifelong passion the relentless pursuit of understanding that one woman and loving her alone for a lifetime. Jesus Himself emphasized the marriage relationship as being the two becoming one flesh, and says that what God has joined together no man should put asunder.
And I can understand that… what YOU want for YOUR children. But again, that has a mainline into Christian theology. For those who aren’t Christian, it’s not like they want the world to end for their kids! I can assure you that my family wants a loving, caring environment for the kids… one that has plenty of great rolemodels and plenty of culture for them to grow in.
I reject this definition as wrong because in the ethical system which defines my beliefs (the Bible) “ethical” and “non-monogamy” are an oxymoron. It would be like talking about dry water.
That’s what I figured once I thought about your answer more. I can understand how coming from your biblical leanings you would have trouble understanding that there can be such a thing as ethical non-monogamy. The fact is that you can reject the definition all you like based on anythign you like, but there are thousands of people living this life and the definition as such.
I agree. In the country in which we live I ought to advocate for the things which I believe will result in the greatest good for everyone in our country, and you should do the same. Under the best of circumstances we can even discuss our differences politely and constructively, and even if we don’t change each other’s minds, one or the other can perhaps persuade others to his cause.
You make it sound like I don’t advocate for that. THAT is precisely what prompted me to reply to these comments… the fact that I saw an area where people were in need of some real-life information that just may prompt them to do more research on their own, open their minds (since it’s not just the “freaks” and “hippies” who are leading this life) and practice some good old fashioned acceptance even if the understanding is a long-time coming.
Here is another place we part company. I believe that relativistic ethics are a recipe for chaos and much harm to many people. You believe (apparently) that an absolute moral code attributed to God-inspired revelation is suffocating and arbitrary. One of us is right here and one is wrong. It would be silly for me to go on to say who I think is right.
I believe that the *Christian* imposed moral code is suffocating and arbitrary. There is a difference.
That’s close enough to the statistics I remember for my tastes. Anyway, monogamous marriage appeals to many who are equipped to handle it and also to many who aren’t. The solution is to better equip young people for marriage, not to dump the template. After all, look at the generations that preceeded you in your own family. Not all that many years ago the vast majority of Americans entered marriage for life. The model works, but it is not effectively applied many times today.
First, let me make it perfectly clear that I hold NO objections whatsoever to monogamous relationships. I think that is the absolute best recipe for some people to model in their lives, and yes for some it does in fact work. It just so happens that I do NOT believe monogamy is the ONLY way or that it fits ALL people (any more than I believe Christianity is the ONLY way or that it fits everyone). I also agree that young people need to have more “education” in relationships and how to relate to others (I also think they need more money management education, but that’s another discussion entirely). I still fail to see how 1 mold fits all, nor do I see how even if in the past 1 mold was ok, it would preclude looking into other molds as time and human beings change. There was a time when marriages were arranged as well and that “worked”… but times change.
Regardless of the outcome, life will go on, won’t it? Sadly though (and I mean this sincerely), it will go on with probably one more wrecked marriage, one more broken man, two more broken women, several more broken children, and for you personally I fear it will last just long enough that when it does go south you will be old enough that the chance for a truly stable and secure home for you and the children you might otherwise have will have slipped away.
Oh give me a break, please. You aren’t a fortune teller (which of course according to your beliefs would be a sin anyway). You don’t know me or my life other than what I have shared. Worried for me? For those children I might have had? How do you know that I’m even capable of having children? And of course you haven’t heard a word I’ve said about how stable and secure this relationship IS. *insert rolling eyes here*
One thing that has always puzzled me about young women who will go into shack-up relationships (i.e. no committment as expressed in marriage) is that they do not use the years when they are attractive and desirable to men of their own generation to try to build a lasting and committed relationship (once again with the M-word) which will see them through a lifetime. I’m not trying to be insulting here; this really has always been inexplicable to me. The reverse situation is not a puzzle at all. Most men in these situations believe (some correctly and some not) that when they tire of the old girlfriend they can always get a new one. That is why the “trade the 40-year old in for two 20’s” jokes about men elicit a laugh–there is some truth to them. The reverse almost never happens.
So what you’re saying is that a woman’s only purpose in life should be to find a mate that will truly make her happy for the rest of her life and bear lots of children. Stuck in the 30s much? I’ll bet you even oppose women working, don’t you? Not trying to be insulting? You may need to work on that a little… a lot.
I know you don’t care to have me be your internet shrink, but I would urge you to take some time alone to really examine your life and see if the insecurities you have alluded to and perhaps some self-esteem issues have brought you to the place where you are disrespecting youself by being the insecure girlfriend of a bigamist rather than a confident and independent woman who either can face life alone or can form a healthy, mutually monogamous marriage with a healthy man.
Oh my gods. I’m afraid our friendly little debate is about over now. Yes I have insecurities. At least I’m big enough to not only admit that I have them, but to delve into why they exist and how I can manage to eventually overcome them (as mentioned it’s taken a long time for them to build — most of which is due to MONOGAMOUS relationships gone wrong). But your description of me IS insulting, demeaning and downright rude. You’re making gross assumptions and turning them into insults. Anyone who really knows me would describe me as confident and independent (along with stubborn, loyal, intelligent, articulate, curious, happy and sexy). Just because you have a blind faith in what is written in the bible and refuse to believe that other people may have different ideas that, while they may not be for you, may work just fine for them is no excuse for you to sling insults… even followed by the obligatory “I don’t mean to be insulting” statement. Fact is, those comments were insulting, presumptuous and rude.
*sigh* My intent in coming here was to shed a bit of reallife information regarding multiple partner relationships as I saw a lot of incorrect assumptions and comments based on no real knowledge or understanding. To show by real life example that they CAN work… that everyday average people ARE involved in them and ARE happy (from stay at home moms, to IT professionals, to salesmen, to teachers, to firefighters…). I hope I’ve managed to succeed a little. However, I’m afraid the discussion has come to its natural end in that it is simply hard to discuss such a foreign concept as truly loving more than 1 person to those who have blind faith in a work of fiction that simply does not apply to everyone (me included).
I was raised christian. I was raised to believe in what the bible says. However, as I grew, I began questioning and the answers did not make sense to me (ie: ostracization of gays and limiting of women instead of acceptance of all and growing to be all that you really can be… whether that is in the home or out of it, with 1 person or more). I no longer accept the Bible as anything more than a work of fiction… handed down through the generations, written and rewritten by men who took liberties to edit as they deemed fit (how else can you explain the changing of “poisoner” to “witch” in the KJ version?). I no longer see Jesus as anything more than a great man of his time. Son of God? Only in the same respect that we all are. The bible simply doesn’t apply. And to have this kind of discussion when 1 side clearly *refuses* to see even the potential good in a situation that applies to others even if they don’t agree with it themselves… Well… I think my head has enough bumps in it from bashing it against brick walls in the past (trying to change a system that doesn’t want to change) that I’ve had my fill.
Ask more if you wish… but I would also urge research on your own. A great site for that is http://www.xeromag.com/fvpoly.html
And before anyone informs me that my beliefs and/or lifestyle are condemning me to hell… well… I don’t believe in that either. :-)
“…the fact that I saw an area where people were in need of some real-life information that just may prompt them to do more research on their own, open their minds (since it’s not just the “freaks” and “hippies” who are leading this life) and practice some good old fashioned acceptance even if the understanding is a long-time coming.”
Sorry, but the real life information which you have been good enough to be quite frank and honest about confirms to me that this is a trend which will impoverish rather than enrich those who participate.
I wrote: “Here is another place we part company. I believe that relativistic ethics are a recipe for chaos and much harm to many people. You believe (apparently) that an absolute moral code attributed to God-inspired revelation is suffocating and arbitrary.”
You replied: “I believe that the *Christian* imposed moral code is suffocating and arbitrary. There is a difference.”
I guess I do not see the difference. Is not the Christian moral code attributed to God-inspired revelation by those of us who subscribe to it? Of course it is not accepted as God-inspired revelation by those who reject it, but the way I phrased the proposition was neutral as whether it is actually God-inspired revelation.
“Oh give me a break, please. You aren’t a fortune teller…” True, however I do have some dim awareness of demographic statistics as well as a body of ancedotal evidence about equal to that of anyone else my age. Were I a betting man, and could I find someone to take the wager, I firmly believe I could reap an ill-gotten windfall by betting on the three of you not being together under the same roof by 2013. But I’m not, so I won’t.
“So what you’re saying is that a woman’s only purpose in life should be to find a mate that will truly make her happy for the rest of her life and bear lots of children.”
No. I’m not saying her ONLY purpose SHOULD be marriage and children. I’m saying most women ARE hardwired to desire a stable marriage and children. Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling,”La la la! I’m not listening!” can drown out the messages that come from the outside, but as Danielle Crittenden has so ably explained, that does not override the internal impulses.
“Stuck in the 30s much? I’ll bet you even oppose women working, don’t you? Not trying to be insulting? You may need to work on that a little… a lot.”
Tee hee hee! ;)
The last four paragraphs essentially are saying that because you reject the Bible as God’s Word written therefore no one has the right to publicly announce that based upon their acceptance of the authority of God’s Word that what you are doing is wrong.
First, it may come as a surprise to you that the divide between those who believe the Bible and those who don’t is neither coextensive nor coterminus with the divide between credulous knuckle-draggers and thinking people. In fact I would guess that my inquiring into and reading of Wellhausen, Bultmann, Finkelstein (they are on your side, BTW) and other scholars regarding the authenticity of Scripture has been far deeper than yours. Your rejection of Scripture, based upon just what you have said here, seems much more a rejection of a message you do not wish to accept than an informed rejection based upon the merits of the evidence.
“And before anyone informs me that my beliefs and/or lifestyle are condemning me to hell… well… I don’t believe in that either. :-)”
…as if your (or my, for that matter) belief or nonbelief in the existence of hell has any effect whatsoever on whether it actually exists.
Anyway, it has been good of you to come and be as open and honest as you have been talking about some very personal things. And I do wish you all the best.
“The rate of divorce among professing Christians pretty much mirrors the population at large.”
And the divorce rate among atheists is much lower.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
“However, among couples in which both are professing Christians, who attend the same church together at least once a week, and spend daily time reading the Bible together and praying the divorce rate is one in about 1,600.”
Sorry, but I don’t believe this without evidence.
Please allow me to add a little to the question of what the Bible says about polygamy.
First off, the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns polygamy. It is never condemned in the Old Testament and it is never condemned in the New Testament. As Joe noted above in post #10, even Martin Luther admitted that he could not “forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.”
There are two places where the Bible comes close to frowning on polygamy. In the Torah, kings are warned against multiplying to themselves “many wives” or “many horses.” In this context, “many” clearly means “too many.” How many is too many? Doesn’t say. Elsewhere in the Torah, supposedly God’s perfect and righteous law, instructions are given that a man shall treat the children of his less favored wife no worse than the children of his favored wife.
Many of the patriarchs and great figures of the Old Testament were polygamists, including Abraham (his “other woman” was in fact a sex slave), Jacob (aka Israel, who had two wives and two sex slaves), Moses, Gideon, Samuel’s father, David, Solomon (the wise guy, with an unbelievable 700 wives and 300 sex slaves).
The most interesting case is David. Cheesehead says that no man was sinless except Jesus. But 1 Kings 15:5 says: “For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD’s commands all the days of his life—except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.” IOW, David was sinless, except in one case. Yet David had at least seven wives. Therefore, in God’s eyes polygamy wasn’t a sin.
The other passage sometimes cited comes from the deutero-Pauline Pastoral epistles in which elders are to be the “husband of but one wife.” This 2nd century restriction applies only to this group. Jesus never condemned polygamy. He did explicitly condemn divorce – interesting that evangelicals aren’t trying to make divorce illegal.
I stopped back because I thought of something else I wanted to add… I might as well reply to what has been written as well.
One thing that has always puzzled me about young women who will go into shack-up relationships (i.e. no committment as expressed in marriage) is that they do not use the years when they are attractive and desirable to men of their own generation to try to build a lasting and committed relationship (once again with the M-word) which will see them through a lifetime.
My forgotten comment — I find it interesting that you equate true commitment only within the guise of marriage. Fascinating. And sad, for in my opinion, one can be truly committed to something or someone or some relationship without a priest and a piece of paper. Yes, I would love to be able to have that piece of paper as well, but my relationship is no less committed without it (just like a lot of gay couples I know). I find it sad when I see someone who relies on a simple piece of paper to tell them what they are committed to.
Sorry, but the real life information which you have been good enough to be quite frank and honest about confirms to me that this is a trend which will impoverish rather than enrich those who participate.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I guess I haven’t made myself clear enough because that certainly isn’t what is going on.
I guess I do not see the difference. Is not the Christian moral code attributed to God-inspired revelation by those of us who subscribe to it? Of course it is not accepted as God-inspired revelation by those who reject it, but the way I phrased the proposition was neutral as whether it is actually God-inspired revelation.
The Christian doctrine and adherence to such is very oppressive and arbitrary in my opinion. There are other dogmas that are less so and those are the ones that I adhere to. Yes, the christian moral code is attributed to God-inspired revelation by those who subscribe to that doctrine. However, it has been my experience that while I believe in an “all is one” God, the perception and interpretation of moral code across doctrines and denominations has some fairly interesting gaps, holes, and variety. They all may say the basic same tenents, but some are more open than others.
“Oh give me a break, please. You aren’t a fortune teller…” True, however I do have some dim awareness of demographic statistics as well as a body of ancedotal evidence about equal to that of anyone else my age. Were I a betting man, and could I find someone to take the wager, I firmly believe I could reap an ill-gotten windfall by betting on the three of you not being together under the same roof by 2013. But I’m not, so I won’t.
*sigh* not worth arguing about. You’re wrong but you’re entitled to your wrong opinion and freedom to state as such.
No. I’m not saying her ONLY purpose SHOULD be marriage and children. I’m saying most women ARE hardwired to desire a stable marriage and children. Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling,”La la la! I’m not listening!” can drown out the messages that come from the outside, but as Danielle Crittenden has so ably explained, that does not override the internal impulses.
I’m hardly sticking my fingers in my ears (there’s that need to work on not being insulting again). Perhaps you just aren’t listening to what *I* am saying about *MY* situation. I don’t’ want kids. I have never wanted kids, unless you count those with fur and 4 legs. I have 2 kids now thanks to my boyfriend and I love them deeply and am looking forward to helping them grow up. Do I want to bear kids of my own? No thanks. So perhaps while your words are saying “I’m not saying this is true for all”, your attitude certainly is.
The last four paragraphs essentially are saying that because you reject the Bible as God’s Word written therefore no one has the right to publicly announce that based upon their acceptance of the authority of God’s Word that what you are doing is wrong.
Not really. I have no problem with people using their first amendment rights to say whatever they want. I won’t deny the fact that when they’re WRONG, especially about me and specifically to my face, I will jump on the discussion and attempt to explain (even when they themselves have their fingers in their ears yelling “La la la!”). You can say whatever you want based on your belief. I was simply trying to show you how it can and does work and why I believe it can and will… and when the discussion comes down to a this is what I believe situation, I will offer what I believe as well and how what you believe may be all fine and good for you, it certainly doesn’t apply to me… and mostly because you believe in the Bible… I believe in myself, the divinity within and think the Bible is an interesting work of fiction (and that last is not based on some adolescent rejection… but on my life and what I have learned, both in my life and through reading — you’re not the only one who has made an effort to inform themselves).
Sorry, but the real life information which you have been good enough to be quite frank and honest about confirms to me that this is a trend which will impoverish rather than enrich those who participate.
If this is the case then what’s the problem here? If participating causes you to become impoverished won’t most people choose not to participate (or to stop participating once they get burned once or twice)? Why are legal policies necessary? Why not just trust individuals to look out for their own best interests?
Rob Ryan: First, about the 1 in 1,600 statistic, if you read the context of what I wrote you will see that I have made no attempt to independently verify the statistic as given by the man who performed my wife’s and my wedding. Sorry, my mind was on other things that day instead of anticipating that some crank would demand documentation of that number. Since we are no longer in regular contact with him I do not know his source for those numbers. However, Dr. Tom Ellis (SBC Council on the Family) was quoted in CNS News as saying,”‘Since the bulk of our nation considers itself Christian, I would not be surprised with the similarities between the ratios of the nation at large and the ratios among those who would call themselves Christians,’ Ellis said. ‘What we have discovered, however, is this: born-again Christian couples who marry … in the church after having received premarital counseling … and attend church regularly and pray daily together, that the divorce rate is approximately 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000.’” I do not know what data he bases that claim on, so you will have to take it up with him.
I will say this, though. One thing that may cause this statistic to skew to the high side, whether the number is one in 1,600 or one in 39,000 is that I would imagine it to be quite difficult to engage in daily devotions and attend church together at least weekly when your marriage is about to end. So, without seeing any supporting data about any of this, I would think it possible that given the prerequistes cited by Dr. Ellis leading into the marriage, that daily devotions and prayer and regular church attendence may be a metric to indicate the healthiness of the marriage. By the time the marriage is at the point of divorce the intimacy associated with spiritual life together will have been long abandoned. IOW an argument could be made that a strong spiritual bond is an indicator of a strong marriage not the cause. This is not an argument I hold to, but I can see that it could be made.
About athiests, you would expect them to have a low divorce rate. After all with no religious motivation to marry rather than just define their own sexual mores, the ones that choose to marry (most likely at a later age) would naturally be self-selected to be the ones likely to stay married.
ex-: the only interesting point you raise is the verse in I Kings 15. About that all I can say is that you are forcing the text to say more in a larger context than it is actually saying. The rest of the blah, blah, blah deutero-Paul kitsch is just so much unsupported higher critical nonsense.
But Merry Christmas all the same.
CH:”Sorry, my mind was on other things that day instead of anticipating that some crank would demand documentation of that number.”
There you go with the name-calling again. First, I’m a moonbat, now I’m a crank. I did not demand documentation; I merely ststed, quite respectfully (unlike some people), that I did not believe this figure without something less anecdotal to back it up. I was aware of the context you provided.
CH: “About athiests, you would expect them to have a low divorce rate. After all with no religious motivation to marry rather than just define their own sexual mores, the ones that choose to marry (most likely at a later age) would naturally be self-selected to be the ones likely to stay married.”
This doesn’t make sense to me as stated. Are you suggesting religiously-motivated marriages are more likely to fail? I would appreciate if if you could clear this up for me.
“This doesn’t make sense to me as stated. Are you suggesting religiously-motivated marriages are more likely to fail? I would appreciate if if you could clear this up for me.”
In a Christian context it is axiomatic that sexual relations are only appropriate in the context of marriage (defined as one man and one woman, BTW). Also churches are generally geared very much toward encouraging family life. Therefore young people desiring to engage in legitimate sexual intimacy and desiring to form families will tend to marry more and at a younger age than will athiests. Athiests, after all, do not see a God-given design for sexual intimacy or anything else–that’s why they are athiests. As a result they will freely participate or abstain from sexual pairings as seems best to them at the time. It is reasonable to assume that they will marry in much smaller proportions and at older ages than Christian young people. So while it is statistically demonstrable that unmarried sexual pairings are dissolved at a much higher rate than are marriages, the athiests who do not marry (as well as anyone else who does not marry) will have their many nonmarital pairings dissolve without showing up in census data because their pairings are not registered.
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