Comments on: Prostitution and the Pollution of Moral Ecology

By: nzuwmhbr nbojhad

nzuwmhbr nbojhad — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:41:06 +0000

pozcqd xwszcdif svtlz sjuxz jcmt qdxbewv shxc

By: Boonton

Boonton — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:55:45 +0000

Interesting, if keep prostitution illegal made people more concerned about reporting child prostitution then why are there such wildly divergent estimates of the number of child prostitutes?
Perhaps another way to approach the question is to ask how many convicted pedophiles had victims that were children they paid to abuse? Seems to me most convictions I hear about are from molestors who target family members, neighborhood kids or kids they have access to through some type of community (scouts, sports coach, school, church etc.). If there’s such a large market of child prostitutes then why so few convictions & why would so many pedophiles target ‘free’ children that put them at much higher risk of discovery?

By: smmtheory

smmtheory — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:35:12 +0000

ucfengr,
I think it is typical the number of people who believe that legitimizing evil is a decent way to combat another evil. The decriminalization of prostitution would lead to under-reporting of child prostitution because the message is loud and clear to the children (or any women even) being victimized – we don’t think what is happening to you is evil, so just shut up and live with it.

By: Boonton

Boonton — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:04:33 +0000

Using your own reasoning, ucfengr, I suppose you are in favor of hundreds of thousands of child prostitutes, just so we can keep the present laws.
ucfengr strikes me as the type that deep down would be happier if the number of child prostitutes in the Netherlands was really 25,000 instead of much less simply because the higher number does more to fit his ideological needs.

By: ex-preacher

ex-preacher — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:35:47 +0000

Since no one has stepped forward to offer any better numbers, let me suggest some comparisons between the US and the Netherlands with regards to child prostitution.
First, though, I must state the obvious: the numbers on child prostitution are so elusive that no one seems to have a good grasp on any of them.
So, here goes:
Netherlands population: 16.4 million
US population: 303.6 million
The US is therefore 18.5 times larger.
Using the high numbers . . .
Netherlands has 15,000 child prostitutes (CPs)
US has 600,000 CPs, or 40 times as many.
Netherlands = 1 CP per 1093 people
US = 1 CP per 506 people, or twice as many per capita
Using the low numbers . . .
Netherlands has 1,000 CPs
US has 100,000 CPs, or 100 times as many
Netherlands = 1 CP per 16,400 people,
US = 1 CP per 3,000 people, or five times as many per capita
Using average (median) numbers . . .
Netherlands has 8,000 CPs
US has 350,000 CPs, or almost 44 times as many
Netherlands = 1 CP per 2050 people
US = 1 CP per 867 people, or about 2.5 times as many per capita
Conclusion – legalized prostitution results in fewer child prostitutes than illegal prostitution
Using your own reasoning, ucfengr, I suppose you are in favor of hundreds of thousands of child prostitutes, just so we can keep the present laws.

By: Boonton

Boonton — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:18:57 +0000

I guess that more or less brings it to a close. Nice of ucfengr to provide the final nail in his coffin:
I understand that you don’t want to write a Ph.D. thesis, but a data curve without data points is meaningless.
The world waits for ucfengr to provide any data points.

By: ex-preacher

ex-preacher — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:47:03 +0000

FWIW, I found a report that repeats numbers that others have claimed.
http://www.ecpatusa.org/pdfs/AlternativeReportUSAFinal2007.pdf
The numbers don’t appear to have much hard research behind them, but here they are.
On page 6, the report states that a researcher at the Univ. of Pennsylvania estimated in 2001 that “293,000 American youth are currently at risk for becoming victims of commercial sexual exploitation.” As you can see, this doesn’t claim there are that many child prostitutes, just that many “at risk.”
On page 7, we read that, “Sources, including non-profit groups that work with sexually exploited people, suggest there may be between 500,000 to 600,000 prostituted children in the United States.” No mention of methodology on how the number was reached. Anyone else have anything?

By: ex-preacher

ex-preacher — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:51:07 +0000

I think the report putting the number at 1-2,000 child prostitutes in the Netherlands is more accurate based on reading the report that explains how they arrived at that number. If you can find a link to a thorough description of how the advocacy group arrived at the 15,000 estimate, I will be glad to read that report and compare the methods.
I went to the link you gave on the number of child prostitutes in the US being 100,000 to 300,000, but couldn’t find that quote. We also need to clarify what we mean by “child prostitute.” The 1-2,000 number was counting 16 and 17 year olds (who accounted for most of the total number), whereas the US study you linked to appeared to only count those under 16. I’m looking for this number myself and appeal to you or others for a better estimate. What is the estimated number of under 18 prostitutes in the United States and how was the estimate arrived at?

By: ucfengr

ucfengr — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:30:23 +0000

how do you account for another study, which appears to me to be more comprehensive and less biased Do you have any objective reason for saying it is more comprehensive and less biased, or do you just like it better because it tends to support your position? How many minors in the sex trade are there in the U.S.? I found one study that estimates from 100k to 300k (Link). Yawn, the guy was just pointing out the absurdity of your claim that no women (except for a tiny microscoptic minority) would willingly be prostitutes. Really, that was what he was trying to do? Well there are ways to do that and one way would be to provide, oh you know, actual data, instead of relying on vague memories of prostitution around military bases 10 years ago and recollections of an unlinked "study" that shows 25%(!) of women in S. Korea have been prostitutes. Considering that all the data I've seen indicates that the number of prostitutes worldwide is something less than 1% of the population, a study that claims 25% would raise eyebrows, to say the least. And no supply demand curves don't disappear just because you don't understand what they are and won't bother to try to learn. What are your generic supply/demand curves supposed to show? That you know what a generic supply/demand curve looks like? Bravo, I will concede that you know what one looks like, but what you haven't been able to do is give any reason why I should accept your curve as relevant to the specific topic. I understand that you don't want to write a Ph.D. thesis, but a data curve without data points is meaningless.

By: Boonton

Boonton — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 17:30:43 +0000

ucfengr
That’s great Oclarki, so to follow that do you think we in the West should adopt Asian attitudes towards women or should we just adopt European attitudes towards family? Do you really think the US should be more like the Netherlands?
Yawn, the guy was just pointing out the absurdity of your claim that no women (except for a tiny microscoptic minority) would willingly be prostitutes. Nice rhetorical move though, when your claims fail smear everyone within arms reach.
That’s quite a bit different from “making up the number” isn’t it?
ex wasn’t attacking the groups intentions but the validity of the number. I think it’s pretty clear at this point the numbers do not add up.
I asked if you thought children could consent to prostitution based on your implication that most prostitutes aren’t forced into the “profession”.
Errr, even if we use your numbers (25,000 Neth. prostitutes and 15,000 minors) most prostitutes aren’t children. But since you’re given to distorting people I’ll do the CYA and tell you officially no I do not think a child can consent to either sex or to be a prostitute. I would, however, note that a distinction should be made between true child prostitution and minors who are prostitutes. There is a world of difference between a 17 year old and a 7 year old…but no I don’t think either should be legal.
Supply/demand curves aren’t really all that useful in this situation. It is easy to make more TVs or dish soap if demand goes up; you just add another shift or build another factory.
Actually no it’s not that easy to just make more TV’s or dish soap. And no supply demand curves don’t disappear just because you don’t understand what they are and won’t bother to try to learn.