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> <channel><title>Comments on: Buying the End of Slavery</title> <atom:link href="http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html</link> <description>reflections on culture, politics, and religion from an evangelical worldview</description> <lastBuildDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:26:22 +0000</lastBuildDate> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <item><title>By: Lindsay Stallones</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100705</link> <dc:creator>Lindsay Stallones</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:34:33 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100705</guid> <description>Dustin,That&#039;s exactly what I mean.  Thanks for summing it up concisely for me!  :)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dustin,</p><p>That&#8217;s exactly what I mean.  Thanks for summing it up concisely for me!  :)</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dustin R. Steeve</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100695</link> <dc:creator>Dustin R. Steeve</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:14:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100695</guid> <description>Economies seem healthiest and more naturally aligned with human nature where people can freely innovate, create jobs, produce, and consume.  However, my question for both Smmtheory and Lindsay is this: are these actions without moral consequence?Not to put words in Lindsay&#039;s mouth, but I think it&#039;s safe to say that she would argue &quot;No, in fact we as a society should be more aware of the moral consequences of these actions.&quot;  That assumption seems to operate at the heart of Lindsay&#039;s post.  Smmtheory, I don&#039;t think Lindsay feels it wrong to freely create and sell (or buy) products, but I think she thinks it wrong to do so at the cost of human dignity.Smmtheory, it sounds like you concern is that you do not actually believe that human dignity is being sacrificed in order to freely produce the goods on the market today.  Is that correct?  My follow-up is this: Do you deny that human slavery exists in the world today?  If so, what do you do with the evidence that Lindsay has presented (as well as numerous organizations such as International Justice Mission)?  If not, for what purpose does human slavery exist today?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Economies seem healthiest and more naturally aligned with human nature where people can freely innovate, create jobs, produce, and consume.  However, my question for both Smmtheory and Lindsay is this: are these actions without moral consequence?</p><p>Not to put words in Lindsay&#8217;s mouth, but I think it&#8217;s safe to say that she would argue &#8220;No, in fact we as a society should be more aware of the moral consequences of these actions.&#8221;  That assumption seems to operate at the heart of Lindsay&#8217;s post.  Smmtheory, I don&#8217;t think Lindsay feels it wrong to freely create and sell (or buy) products, but I think she thinks it wrong to do so at the cost of human dignity.</p><p>Smmtheory, it sounds like you concern is that you do not actually believe that human dignity is being sacrificed in order to freely produce the goods on the market today.  Is that correct?  My follow-up is this: Do you deny that human slavery exists in the world today?  If so, what do you do with the evidence that Lindsay has presented (as well as numerous organizations such as International Justice Mission)?  If not, for what purpose does human slavery exist today?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: smmtheory</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100692</link> <dc:creator>smmtheory</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:32:18 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100692</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You’re swimming upstream against all the evidence, smmtheory. Why? What do you have to gain by defending rampant, conscience-less consumerism?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Again, that is your opinion on the evidence. I&#039;m a skeptic, and your evidence hasn&#039;t convinced me yet. I am by no means sure that consumerism is the demon you are making it out to be. Your arguments sound like rehash of collectivist arguments against capitalism. For example, your exhortation seems analogous to saying &quot;Buy less and save your souls! If not, pay for indulgences.&quot; If I think about the logical conclusion of paying more for a product because it is &quot;guaranteed&quot; slavery free, I can imagine some slave owners hiding it and jacking up their prices to advertise being slavery free. What do you have to gain by demonizing consumerism?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You’re swimming upstream against all the evidence, smmtheory. Why? What do you have to gain by defending rampant, conscience-less consumerism?</p></blockquote><p>Again, that is your opinion on the evidence. I&#8217;m a skeptic, and your evidence hasn&#8217;t convinced me yet. I am by no means sure that consumerism is the demon you are making it out to be. Your arguments sound like rehash of collectivist arguments against capitalism. For example, your exhortation seems analogous to saying &#8220;Buy less and save your souls! If not, pay for indulgences.&#8221; If I think about the logical conclusion of paying more for a product because it is &#8220;guaranteed&#8221; slavery free, I can imagine some slave owners hiding it and jacking up their prices to advertise being slavery free. What do you have to gain by demonizing consumerism?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Lindsay Stallones</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100675</link> <dc:creator>Lindsay Stallones</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:05:44 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100675</guid> <description>But without the guarantee of immense profit made possible by an increased consumerist culture in the industrialized world, what motive would slavers have to participate on a vast scale?  Again, the buying of products itself doesn&#039;t directly cause slavery, but our consumer culture (especially in the last 50 years or so) created conditions that have made it profitable for people to enslave others to maximize their profits.You&#039;re swimming upstream against all the evidence, smmtheory.  Why?  What do you have to gain by defending rampant, conscience-less consumerism?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But without the guarantee of immense profit made possible by an increased consumerist culture in the industrialized world, what motive would slavers have to participate on a vast scale?  Again, the buying of products itself doesn&#8217;t directly cause slavery, but our consumer culture (especially in the last 50 years or so) created conditions that have made it profitable for people to enslave others to maximize their profits.</p><p>You&#8217;re swimming upstream against all the evidence, smmtheory.  Why?  What do you have to gain by defending rampant, conscience-less consumerism?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: smmtheory</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100671</link> <dc:creator>smmtheory</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:37:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100671</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If not for the demand, the guarantee that slavers will make a profit from this trafficking, it would not occur.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Back before the advent of farm machinery that drastically increased the efficiency of working crops, I might have agreed with you that the demand for cheaper products would have made slavery lucrative. Now, I think there is something else at work, something more sinister than just plain consumerism.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If not for the demand, the guarantee that slavers will make a profit from this trafficking, it would not occur.</p></blockquote><p>Back before the advent of farm machinery that drastically increased the efficiency of working crops, I might have agreed with you that the demand for cheaper products would have made slavery lucrative. Now, I think there is something else at work, something more sinister than just plain consumerism.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Lindsay Stallones</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100665</link> <dc:creator>Lindsay Stallones</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:01:30 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100665</guid> <description>Of course the simple act of refusing to buy slave-produced goods doesn&#039;t automatically free someone from slavery.  I never claimed it would.The fact remains that consumer demand, particularly for increasingly cheap products, drives the need for cheaper and cheaper labor, and as various authorities, government and otherwise, throughout the world have discovered, is driving a thriving black market in human trafficking for slave labor.  Some industries are more rife with it in than others.If not for the demand, the guarantee that slavers will make a profit from this trafficking, it would not occur.Does that make it your fault for buying a Heath bar at the grocery store?  Well... yes and no.  Obviously your purchase doesn&#039;t force someone into slavery.  But your purchase contributes to the increased demand that motivates wicked people to force people into slavery.Solving the problem, freeing the slaves, requires a multi-faceted approach.  In some cases, simply boycotting products actually hurts those who are enslaved more than continuing to purchase them.  But we must become aware of the effects our of seemingly independent choices.  If companies realized there was money to be made in ensuring slave-free products, don&#039;t you think they&#039;d scramble to do it?  We&#039;ve watched it happen with the &#039;green revolution.&#039;We need to encourage authorities to enforce anti-trafficking laws, of course.  But as consumers, we wield a tremendous amount of power as well.  We should use that power to urge companies to do what is good for our brothers and sisters around the world.  Instead of mindlessly consuming, we should be aware of the consequences of our purchases and do our best to mitigate the bad consequences as much as possible.That means, instead of just buying the Heath bar, we might consider a fair trade chocolate bar, which is often much more tasty anyway, and our purchase then goes to the people who would otherwise be exploited.  We could also take a few minutes to write a letter or put in a call to Hershey&#039;s and explain to them that we love Heath bars, but are concerned about the labor practices in the cacao fields and ask them to look into it. promising customer loyalty for a commitment to fair trade.It&#039;s not hard.  It&#039;s laughably simple.  But if we&#039;re too consumed by our right to have a Heath bar whenever we darn well please, blasted be the consequences, then we&#039;re participating in the evil of slavery.  Ignorance doesn&#039;t excuse us.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course the simple act of refusing to buy slave-produced goods doesn&#8217;t automatically free someone from slavery.  I never claimed it would.</p><p>The fact remains that consumer demand, particularly for increasingly cheap products, drives the need for cheaper and cheaper labor, and as various authorities, government and otherwise, throughout the world have discovered, is driving a thriving black market in human trafficking for slave labor.  Some industries are more rife with it in than others.</p><p>If not for the demand, the guarantee that slavers will make a profit from this trafficking, it would not occur.</p><p>Does that make it your fault for buying a Heath bar at the grocery store?  Well&#8230; yes and no.  Obviously your purchase doesn&#8217;t force someone into slavery.  But your purchase contributes to the increased demand that motivates wicked people to force people into slavery.</p><p>Solving the problem, freeing the slaves, requires a multi-faceted approach.  In some cases, simply boycotting products actually hurts those who are enslaved more than continuing to purchase them.  But we must become aware of the effects our of seemingly independent choices.  If companies realized there was money to be made in ensuring slave-free products, don&#8217;t you think they&#8217;d scramble to do it?  We&#8217;ve watched it happen with the &#8216;green revolution.&#8217;</p><p>We need to encourage authorities to enforce anti-trafficking laws, of course.  But as consumers, we wield a tremendous amount of power as well.  We should use that power to urge companies to do what is good for our brothers and sisters around the world.  Instead of mindlessly consuming, we should be aware of the consequences of our purchases and do our best to mitigate the bad consequences as much as possible.</p><p>That means, instead of just buying the Heath bar, we might consider a fair trade chocolate bar, which is often much more tasty anyway, and our purchase then goes to the people who would otherwise be exploited.  We could also take a few minutes to write a letter or put in a call to Hershey&#8217;s and explain to them that we love Heath bars, but are concerned about the labor practices in the cacao fields and ask them to look into it. promising customer loyalty for a commitment to fair trade.</p><p>It&#8217;s not hard.  It&#8217;s laughably simple.  But if we&#8217;re too consumed by our right to have a Heath bar whenever we darn well please, blasted be the consequences, then we&#8217;re participating in the evil of slavery.  Ignorance doesn&#8217;t excuse us.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: smmtheory</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100664</link> <dc:creator>smmtheory</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:09:22 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100664</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You know, if you don’t keep vainly trying to misrepresent my statements, this conversation will be a lot more productive.&lt;/blockquote&gt;What an utterly ridiculous assertion. Misunderstanding some vague and tenuous philosophical expository statement you&#039;ve made is a far cry from trying to misrepresent your statement. What I think is futile is trying to explain how exactly not buying some company&#039;s chocolate actually offers somebody else physical freedom. I don&#039;t believe you have succeeded in that.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You know, if you don’t keep vainly trying to misrepresent my statements, this conversation will be a lot more productive.</p></blockquote><p>What an utterly ridiculous assertion. Misunderstanding some vague and tenuous philosophical expository statement you&#8217;ve made is a far cry from trying to misrepresent your statement. What I think is futile is trying to explain how exactly not buying some company&#8217;s chocolate actually offers somebody else physical freedom. I don&#8217;t believe you have succeeded in that.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Lindsay Stallones</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100660</link> <dc:creator>Lindsay Stallones</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:09:40 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100660</guid> <description>Mr. Incredible, I give up.  If you don&#039;t know there are people being held in actual, physical slavery today, you&#039;re not committed enough to this conversation to pay attention to it.smmtheory,The Lord, so far as we know, never painted a picture or composed a symphony, yet when humans made in His image do these things, it is in imitation of God&#039;s role as Creator.  We cannot create a wonderful universe from nothing as He did, but our attempts to create beauty from the universe He created are our way of expressing His attributes.  We&#039;re made in His image, after all.  For goodness sake, it&#039;s all in Augustine.In the same way, when we offer someone physical freedom, it&#039;s an imitation of the greater, spiritual freedom He offered us.You know, if you don&#039;t keep vainly trying to misrepresent my statements, this conversation will be a lot more productive.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Incredible, I give up.  If you don&#8217;t know there are people being held in actual, physical slavery today, you&#8217;re not committed enough to this conversation to pay attention to it.</p><p>smmtheory,</p><p>The Lord, so far as we know, never painted a picture or composed a symphony, yet when humans made in His image do these things, it is in imitation of God&#8217;s role as Creator.  We cannot create a wonderful universe from nothing as He did, but our attempts to create beauty from the universe He created are our way of expressing His attributes.  We&#8217;re made in His image, after all.  For goodness sake, it&#8217;s all in Augustine.</p><p>In the same way, when we offer someone physical freedom, it&#8217;s an imitation of the greater, spiritual freedom He offered us.</p><p>You know, if you don&#8217;t keep vainly trying to misrepresent my statements, this conversation will be a lot more productive.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: smmtheory</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100659</link> <dc:creator>smmtheory</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:21:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100659</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In fact, the most effective abolitionists are doing both - freeing people from slavery is an act in imitation of Christ the Savior&lt;/blockquote&gt;I think you would have a tough time finding scripture in the Gospel to back your claim up Lindsay. If I remember correctly, Jesus did not actually set slaves free from their earthly bonds. What he did do was set us all free from the slavery to sin, which is something entirely different.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In fact, the most effective abolitionists are doing both &#8211; freeing people from slavery is an act in imitation of Christ the Savior</p></blockquote><p>I think you would have a tough time finding scripture in the Gospel to back your claim up Lindsay. If I remember correctly, Jesus did not actually set slaves free from their earthly bonds. What he did do was set us all free from the slavery to sin, which is something entirely different.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Mr. Incredible</title><link>http://evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2009/06/buying-the-end-of-slavery.html/comment-page-1#comment-100647</link> <dc:creator>Mr. Incredible</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 22:14:03 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://evangelicaloutpost.com/?p=3302#comment-100647</guid> <description>(Joh 8:36)  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.Where did Jesus go wrong when He said that?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Joh 8:36)  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.</p><p>Where did Jesus go wrong when He said that?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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